(My) Stats for a Sap?

[Aust Diamondew]

Are you saying that the idea of knocking a guard unconscious with a single blow is somehow unrealistic? Perhaps, but it's dramatically established, and we need a way to model that.

Or are you saying that the sap should be mechanically worthless? If so, suggest another mechanic, please.

Or are you saying that "dropping" (which includes killing and rendering unconscious) should default to killing, and thus the sap should be ignored?

-- N

I'm saying if we add special rules to allow a sap to more easily 1 hit KO why shouldn't other weapons do the same? Sure a sword would kill instead of merely knock uncouncious.

What I'm saying is this is an issue with how hit points work and not with how the sap works.
I'd recommend using a viatlity/wound points system and simply allow attacks in certain situations to automatically bypass vitality.

Or just deal with the sap not being able to 1 hit KO people. Cause if it should then any weapon should.

 

[hong]

Are you saying that the idea of knocking a guard unconscious with a single blow is somehow unrealistic? Perhaps, but it's dramatically established, and we need a way to model that.

Or are you saying that the sap should be mechanically worthless? If so, suggest another mechanic, please.

Or are you saying that "dropping" (which includes killing and rendering unconscious) should default to killing, and thus the sap should be ignored?

-- N

The sap is not mechanically worthless. It's the only way to get nonlethal damage with a weapon, without taking a -4 penalty to hit. It's also the only way to deal sneak attack nonlethal damage, without spending a feat for Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

Now it's not exactly mechanically golden either, but RAW it does have a purpose.

 

[Nifft]

Or just deal with the sap not being able to 1 hit KO people. Cause if it should then any weapon should.

"Just deal with"? What a great attitude for house rules. Well, if you're curious, in my game we do exactly that. No-one uses a sap, nor is anyone particularly interested in using one.

I'm making suggestions to a certain froggy someone who has already modified the sap (with the intention of making it better at knocking folks out).

My position is that modifying the crit multiplier will make the weapon more powerful (a tiny bit), but will not make it any more reliable. When you need to take a guard out in one round, you want to be able to do reliable damage -- it should work much more often than fail, if you intend that tactic is to be useful.

It's dramatically established that a dude can knock out a low-level guard. Realism need not apply.

Cheers, -- N

PS: I don't really understand what you're talking about regarding circumventing hit points while quoting me -- everything I've talked about uses hit points exclusively.

 

[Nifft]

The sap is not mechanically worthless. It's the only way to get nonlethal damage with a weapon, without taking a -4 penalty to hit. It's also the only way to deal sneak attack nonlethal damage, without spending a feat for Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

Now it's not exactly mechanically golden either, but RAW it does have a purpose.

Or one level of Monk. A 1st level Monk's unarmed strike is strictly better than a sap.

Clearly a 3rd level Rogue with a sap would have a decent chance at taking down a 1st level guard. But the sap is a Light weapon, so you can't even Power Attack with it... though you could dual-wield them.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I like the idea of the sap being a martial weapon that deals 1 point of non-lethal damage and adds +2D6 sneak attack dice.. simple, elegant, and makes the weapon very handy when weilded by a Rogue while not making the weapons a Rogue only item. The mechanic nicely emulates how difficult it is to get a 'proper' KO strike in.

 

[Felnar]

a 3rd level Rogue with a sap

rogues should probably be given sap proficiency too

and i think i'd like a mechanic that places unaware characters at a greater disadvantage

 

[Nifft]

rogues should probably be given sap proficiency too

They do, at least in the on-line SRD.
Did the PHB miss this?

-- N

 

[hong]

Or one level of Monk. A 1st level Monk's unarmed strike is strictly better than a sap.

Somehow, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore, Toto.

 

[hong]

My position is that modifying the crit multiplier will make the weapon more powerful (a tiny bit), but will not make it any more reliable. When you need to take a guard out in one round, you want to be able to do reliable damage -- it should work much more often than fail, if you intend that tactic is to be useful.

Your average 1st level rogue with a sap and 14 Str does ~9 points with a sneak attack, which is quite enough to take out a 1HD warrior with 5 hp.

 

[Felnar]

They do, at least in the on-line SRD.
Did the PHB miss this?

-- N

ah, its not in the PHB, but it is in the PHB errata

my rogue would be interested in this, if only he had more strength or a sap weighed 0 lbs :\