(My) Stats for a Sap?

[Pyrex]

It is also meant to be used on someone who is basically unaware and you strike them in a specific spot for it to work (i.e. you cannot "sap" someone by hitting them in the gut).

Sure you can. You hit them in the gut with a sap and they take 1d6+Str nonlethal damage.

If you want to KO someone with a sap by sneaking up behind them and bonking them in the back of the head, you need Assassin levels. Or at the very least levels in a class that gives Sneak Attack.

 

[el-remmen]

Assassin levels?

All you need is sneak attack with a weapon that only does non-lethal damage to do non-lethal sneak attack damage - representing a very good bonk on the back of the head. . .

 

[Kmart Kommando]

If you want to KO someone with a sap by sneaking up behind them and bonking them in the back of the head, you need Assassin levels. Or at the very least levels in a class that gives Sneak Attack.

Ooh, sweet, I have Assassin levels.

 

[Nifft]

If you want to make it a really good Sneak Attack weapon, consider allowing it to grant +2d6 Sneak Attack damage -- to anyone, even if they would otherwise be unable to sneak attack.

Then it's fine dealing 1 point of nonlethal damage -- the only sane time to use it is when you can catch your foe with a sneak attack anyway.

With this rule, a 1st level Rogue can use a sap to thwap for 1+3d6 nonlethal damage -- enough to take down an average 1st level guard.

Cheers, -- N

 

[ChimericDream]

I also created new rules for making a knockout attempt with a sap. I think that there needs to be a chance, at any level, for your opponent to be knocked unconscious from a blow to the back of the head. I mean, come on, a bag of lead shot impacts your skull from out of the blue, and you're still fine and dandy? I based this mechanic squarely off the Assassin's death attack.

Sap Knockout

If a character studies his target for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a sap and hits, the attack has the additional effect of possibly knocking the target unconscious. While studying the target, the character can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the character or recognize the character as an enemy. If the target of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC character's class level + 1 per d6 of sneak attack or similar class feature) against the knockout effect, she falls unconscious. The target is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 minutes plus 1 minute per level of the character. If the target receives 1 point of healing (such as from a cure spell), they are woken up, but take a -2 to all actions for the next 3d6 minutes. If the target's saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the character has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the knockout attack within the next 3 rounds.

If a knockout attack is attempted and fails (the target makes her save) or if the character does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another knockout attack.

Example: Jasper is a 14th level Rogue. He studies his opponent for 3 rounds, then makes an knockout attempt and hits. His opponent must make a DC 21 Fortitude save or fall unconscious. The target takes the appropriate amount of non-lethal damage, whether they fail their save or not.

 

[el-remmen]

I don't see the need for extra rules. Just non-lethal damage, the possibility of a x3 crit and the effective addition of sneak attack damage are more than enough to make this weapon work in my eyes.

Sure, it is unlikely to knock out NPCs of significant level, but that is how it should be. The sap should be for knocking out a sentry, or some poor kidnap victim. . . not some sort of general combat option.

 

[Nifft]

I don't think the x3 crit thing is the effect you're looking for, though. x3 crit is unreliable, while a sap used to knock out a guard had better reliably do it in one hit -- or you're better off grappling him and hoping for a pin to prevent speech.

Other mechanics (besides extra sneak attack dice) to consider:
- Extra damage against flat-footed enemies (but not flanked)
- Extra damage if used in the Surprise round

Cheers, -- N

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Doesn't a longsword also stand a reliable chance of dropping someone if I sneak up behind them and hit them with it on the head?
Maybe it should get +2d6 sneak attack too.

 

[Nifft]

Doesn't a longsword also stand a reliable chance of dropping someone if I sneak up behind them and hit them with it on the head?
Maybe it should get +2d6 sneak attack too.

Are you saying that the idea of knocking a guard unconscious with a single blow is somehow unrealistic? Perhaps, but it's dramatically established, and we need a way to model that.

Or are you saying that the sap should be mechanically worthless? If so, suggest another mechanic, please.

Or are you saying that "dropping" (which includes killing and rendering unconscious) should default to killing, and thus the sap should be ignored?

-- N

 

[monboesen]

Are you saying that the idea of knocking a guard unconscious with a single blow is somehow unrealistic?

No it is not unrealistic. But it doesn't jive well with the D&D concept of HP. And any mechanic that circumvents the HP buffer IS problematic. Be it an attack that forces a saving throw to avoid unconsciousness or extra damage in specific situations (which at the same time steps on the intended role of the Rogue).


In D&D creatures with enough levels or HD are not knocked out by single blows. Thats just the natural law that stems from the hp mechanics of a D&D world. Since many other laws (like physics/science in general) work differently, or not at all, in D&D worlds there is nothing strange about that.


When you have 100 HP your "dude" factor prevents people from cutting your throat or knocking you out unless you are absolutely helpless to begin with.


An alternate house ruley way of allowing everyone a shot at KO'ing or killing unaware targets would be to allow Coup de Grace attacks in such situations (not in flanking or combat sitautions, but against targets who have absolutely no idea they are about to be attacked). Rule that if done with non-lethal damage the Coup de Grace results in a KO rather than death (or is that already a rule?).