Mystic Theurge too good or not?

reapersaurus said:
I'm sure this has been said many times, but I'll add mine:

I think the Mystic Theurge is a very bad idea - harkening back purely to 1E cleric/mage multiclass cheese.

Spellcasters (and magic) are powerful enough overall - this is a step in the WRONG direction.

The thing is ... under standard rules, it's not at all even close to viable to play a Cleric/Wizard multiclass. Contrast that to how viable is IS to play a Fighter/Rogue/Barbarian multiclass (Fighter(4) for specialisation, Rogue(5) for some sneak attack and skills, and 11 levels of barbarian for the Rage and DR bennies).

MT may not be an optimal solution, but it's better than what we had before. Personally, I think the "one to each" would have worked well as an every-OTHER-level benefit. But, at least now, playing a Cleric(10)/Wizard(10) isn't a clear and unequivocable display of masochism!
 

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Pax said:
The thing is ... under standard rules, it's not at all even close to viable to play a Cleric/Wizard multiclass.
See.. this is what I simply don't understand.

WHY should it be viable?
Fighting is fighting - BAB is BAB - a fighter does the same thing as a Barbarian... why shouldn't they mesh well?

Spellcasting is a whole 'nother ballgame.
Completely different - no crossover between the two.

[sarcastic comparison] Just because I'm a lawyer (I'm not), does that mean I know how to operate on people, like a doctor?
Why not? They both make a lot of money (traditionally) and are professionals - shouldn't a lawyer with 2 years of experience be able to take medical school for 4 years, and be able to practice law as good as a 6-year lawyer? [/comparison]

What justification is there... other than 1E stupid-multiclassing rules... to allow cleric/mage concept to work?
Similarly, why should mage/fighter work, other than 'because I used to be able to do it so brokenly in 1E'.
 

reapersaurus said:
What justification is there... other than 1E stupid-multiclassing rules... to allow cleric/mage concept to work?
Similarly, why should mage/fighter work, other than 'because I used to be able to do it so brokenly in 1E'.

What justification is there to allow anything? Other than the fact that people want to play it, and it can be fun to play.
 

reapersaurus said:
See.. this is what I simply don't understand.

WHY should it be viable?

Turn that back around - why shouldn't it?

3e was built on the principle that any two characters will be roughly equal, no matter what class(es) they choose to put their levels into. A 20th level fighter ought to be roughly equal to a 20th level wizard, and both ought to be roughly equal to a 20th level multiclass of the two. Spellcaster multiclassing was the one area where it really did not achieve that goal.

Remember, levels are an abstract measure of your character's power - just like points in GURPS or HERO, or dots/freebies/XP in Storyteller. If two characters of the same character level can have such widely differing levels of ability, then it affects the rest of the system, making things like CR and EL even creakier than before.

The reason the way 1e/2e did it was broken was because of the way XP worked in those games - even with splitting your XP across two classes, you were only a level or so behind everyone else. In 3e, you were half the level of everyone else, and unable to pull your weight as a character of your level. (And if you can't do the things a character of your level should be able to do, why are you treated like a character of that level?) In 3.5, you're still effectively 3-4 levels behind (depending on the class)

Effectively, each level of a spellcasting class is worth 'more' than the levels before it (while the fighting classes tend to remain much more even). That means that, say, the first level of cleric is not equal in usefulness to the 15th level of wizard, whereas it might be equal to the 15th level of fighter. So you're not getting 'a level of cleric' and 'a level of wizard', in exchange for 'a level of wizard', you're getting 'the fourth level of cleric' and 'the fourth level of wizard' in exchange for 'the seventh level of wizard or cleric'. You may have depth, but you've paid a tremendous price in power.

You're casting scorching ray for a whopping 4d6 as the single-classed folks are casting...well, OK, 4th level sucks for damaging spells, but their fireballs do 7d6 damage. In an area. And it's not even their highest level spell. Or if they want to show you up directly, they toss off an empowered scorching ray, not only doing half as much damage with a single ray, but getting a second one as well.

Sure, you've got healing - but you've got cure moderate while the single-classed cleric can toss off a cure critical. You can throw up a bull's strength but they've got divine power. You need a feat just to be in the neighborhood of the other casters for getting through SR.

EDIT: sorry, just kind of trailed off there. Anyway, the point is that 3e multiclassing is built on the assumption that all levels are created equal, while 3e spellcasting is built so that higher levels are worth more than lower levels. That's what causes all the problems, and that's why someone with the casting ability of a Clr5/Wiz5 can be said to be the equal of someone with the casting ability of a Wiz8.

J
 
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drnuncheon said:
Turn that back around - why shouldn't it?
Because it is stupid. You don't see people walking around practicing law and medicine. Both are highly technical, which is exactly why they don't go together. Not every choice is or should be viable.

drnuncheon said:
3e was built on the principle that any two characters will be roughly equal, no matter what class(es) they choose to put their levels into. A 20th level fighter ought to be roughly equal to a 20th level wizard, and both ought to be roughly equal to a 20th level multiclass of the two. Spellcaster multiclassing was the one area where it really did not achieve that goal.
That principle is flawed and you know it. A PC who is powergamed will always be alot more effective than a PC who is a generalist and took abilities because they were "nifty". This is true even of single class characters. A fighter could focus heavily on something like spiked chain and be far more generally effective than a character who did some archery, some mounted combat, and some weapon focused feats (as a historical character would)

drnuncheon said:
Remember, levels are an abstract measure of your character's power - just like points in GURPS or HERO, or dots/freebies/XP in Storyteller. If two characters of the same character level can have such widely differing levels of ability, then it affects the rest of the system, making things like CR and EL even creakier than before.
Given some people's dislike of them, I don't know why you want to uphold them.

drnuncheon said:
EDIT: sorry, just kind of trailed off there. Anyway, the point is that 3e multiclassing is built on the assumption that all levels are created equal, while 3e spellcasting is built so that higher levels are worth more than lower levels. That's what causes all the problems, and that's why someone with the casting ability of a Clr5/Wiz5 can be said to be the equal of someone with the casting ability of a Wiz8.

J
So why can't they do something more reasonable like slowly allowing cleric spells into the wizard class via a PrC? That would preserve power and could be limited to prevent powergaming. Besides that, it would be a lot more elegant than the two levels added hack of MT.
 

Hypersmurf said:


Persistent Fear!

Kneel before Zod!

-Hyp.

Oh, baby! I hadn't noticed that has a fixed range. 8th level slot, though.

Anybody figured out if you can lose divine caster levels to get the archmage special powers? That could be handy for the MT.
 

LokiDR said:

Because it is stupid. You don't see people walking around practicing law and medicine. Both are highly technical, which is exactly why they don't go together. Not every choice is or should be viable.


Actually, you do. There are several people in the real world who have degrees in both law and medicine. It's certainly not easy, but it does happen.
 

LokiDR said:

Because it is stupid. You don't see people walking around practicing law and medicine. Both are highly technical, which is exactly why they don't go together. Not every choice is or should be viable.

Untrue, I know several lawyer/doctors - some at pretty high level. :p There are many engineer/physicist/lawyers - out of my class of 300, at least 20 of them. Where do you think the patent bar comes from? There a scads of biologist/chemist/lawyers.

You name the technical subject, I can get you a lawyer with either the degree, or equivalent expertise. Probably within 20 minutes.

Does that mean the MT is viable?
 

Caliban said:


Actually, you do. There are several people in the real world who have degrees in both law and medicine. It's certainly not easy, but it does happen. [/B]

Degrees != practitioners of any real repute. Can you point to any person licenced to practice medicine and law in the same community? Over the years, a person may do many things, but that doesn't make them equally good at all of them.
 

Snipehunt said:


Untrue, I know several lawyer/doctors - some at pretty high level. :p There are many engineer/physicist/lawyers - out of my class of 300, at least 20 of them. Where do you think the patent bar comes from? There a scads of biologist/chemist/lawyers.

You name the technical subject, I can get you a lawyer with either the degree, or equivalent expertise. Probably within 20 minutes.

Does that mean the MT is viable?

If they have "more levels" than their compatriots, it supports bad multiclassing. They just put in more work.

Now, out of those lawers, how many are practicing surgens? Branching is one thing, keep both up is completely different.
 

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