Naked Adventurers (no, it's not what you think)

[Forrester]

Some individual responses . . .

Nightfall: I hear Slacerian Dragons are good with ketchup.
Re the cleric battle -- I'd assume both clerics would put up some Resist Elements. If the 9th level cleric has a Wand of Cure Moderate, I think he'd be able to keep up re the Flamestrike damage.

RangerWickett: I'd be interested in seeing the Hero system as it breaks down. I'm currently working on a "True Monk" character class for 3E -- it's reminiscent of the 1E monk that could only use a limited number of magic items. The True Monk can't use *any* magic items, or have any friendly spells cast on him, except for healing spells and spells that don't mimic any of his "chi" abilities (basically, teleport and illusion magics, and that's it). It's going to be an interesting challenge scaling him with the vast quantities of magic items that are supposed to be available to him at his level -- I think I'm probably going through something similar to what you are.

Vaxalon: Excellent way of demonstrating my point .

VoodooGroves: In a world where 5th level wizards are both theoretically able to craft Wands of Fireballs, AND are not uncommon (advancement is pretty easy at low levels), your War1s and War2s are meat on a stick. You need an entirely new theory of war in 3E. Or, you do what I do: rule you can't craft wands that cast spells of level X until you can cast spells of level X+2. And even then, it's pricy.

Furn_Darkside: Obviously, you have to use the "all else being equal" setup here. Assume equal tactical abilities on both sides of the battle (9th level fighter vs 15th level fighter). Say it was best of three battles, with three starting distances/terrain. All in all, I'm guessing that 80% of the outcome is going to depend on the to-hit bonus of each, the armor class of each, the average damage each does, and the average hp of each, though. That analysis should be easy to do, and it's one I plan on doing when I get a chance.

I agree it will only get you an approximate estimate, but I think that's more useful than handwaving and saying "There's just too many variables to know." Because DMs NEED to know.

Darkness: Good ideas, but the 9th level fighter would probably be sharp enough to use a locked gauntlet. And because the 9th level fighter is going to have an AC that is decidedly better than the 15th level fighter (w/all that magical gear), the 15th level fighter better be damn careful about how much he uses Expertise, or he ain't hitting nothin'. I personally think the 15th level fighter would probably win, but it'd be damn close. 11th level fighter vs 15th level fighter (remember the latter is supposed to be four times as powerful) would, I *think*, almost definitely go to the 11th level fighter.

There's also the problem that if Boots of Striding and Springing are legal, the 15th level fighter is going to have a tough time getting close enough to the fighter to do ANYthing to him.

Re the Wizard battle -- you're correct about the Globe. I'm sure that Mr. 9th level has some 5th and 6th and 7th level scrolls, though, that he wouldn't mind burning off in a situation like this.

All in all, I don't think Wizard vs. Wizard battles are the best way to decide this, though. If the 9th level wizard has a bunch of his money invested in one-shot scrolls, then he's definitely going to be a match -- if not, then he's probably toast. Better would be to do as I noted in my last post -- set up some groups of encounters, and run a couple parties through them. Find out when they drop.

 

[Davelozzi]

Re: Thoughts . . .

...There's a high-level party of elves on the party's trail, with some very nifty custom-made equipment given to them by the King himself. These elves probably have about x1.5 the average loot that *PCs* of that level should start with. So this 8th level party of elves is overequipped (just like I want them to be). How much does this overequipping add to their effective level? One level? Two? Three? I NEED to know -- because there's a big difference in presenting my party an overwhelming challenge, and presenting them a challenge that they have *no* hope in overcoming. After all, the 7th level party of PCs is (slightly) underequipped. How much will this affect them?

It will affect them in one of two ways:

1) They will be defeated by the elves.

2) Through luck, good planning or whatever they manage to achieve victory over the elves. Now you're stuck with a party that is heavily overequiped.

 

[Kugar]

There is an option given to DMs who want a "low magic item" campaign. There are arbitrary "multipiers" in almost all magic item creation. IIRC scrolls are 50 gp x caster level x spell level. In order to reduce the use/abuse of magic items then up this multipier. This can be one across the board or per item class. This does screw up the balance a little. If I did this I would remove ALL DMG specific wonderous magic items from the game and really have fun with it. Players complaine if the boots of speed cost 2x from the book - but not those Baubles of Fastness.
I've found a good way to adjust for expensive charaters is to average their "real" level and "item apparent" level to come up with an apparent level and base xp calculations on that. Most of the time my guys are in balance (up to double if there is a cool Magic Item I think wouldn't be too abusive but is ). The naked 15th level character is so out of balance that I think it is above an 8th level character equivelent, but by how much would depend on the character. Fighters tend to be MUCH more addicted to magical equipment then the spellcasting breathren.

 

[Forrester]

Re: Re: Thoughts . . .

It will affect them in one of two ways:

1) They will be defeated by the elves.

2) Through luck, good planning or whatever they manage to achieve victory over the elves. Now you're stuck with a party that is heavily overequiped.

I'm hurt that you give me so little credit. The most powerful of the elves' magic items have the "Aura of Corellan" on them. Gives the items a little extra power boost . . . and makes non-elves who try to use the items get all hurty. Cheaty elves, cheaty elves . . .

 

[Sammael99]

I've followed this thread with interest since it seems to me that I fit the "low-magic" campaign. I've never calculated item values and there is in effect no "market" for magic items in my campaign. Can't be bought, can be sold, but certainly not at the prices considered in the DMG.

Here's what my group has in terms of permanent magic items :

Druid (Lvl 7) : +1 quarterstaff / Headband of Etherealness / Immovable Rod / +1 dagger

Barbarian (Lvl 6) : +1 keen 2h axe / +2 ring of protection / +1 dagger

Fighter / Wizard (Lvl 6) : Mithral Chain Shirt / +1 ring of protection

Wizard (Lvl 7) : Wand of Daylight / +1 dagger

Rogue (Lvl 5) : +1 armor of hiding / +1 dagger

There's also a magical longsword of unknown power in the group, but since that's the chosen weapon of no one, it's unused.

I think this is underdimensioned, but I'm not absolutely sure.

I'm mainly interested in the thread here because I'm weary of the unbalancing effect between spellcasters and non spellcasters due to the "lack" of magic items. I can curb the wizard's power fairly easily : not all spells are available in the setting, and he can't pick just what he wants but must instead learn what he finds. Not so with the druid, who is turning out to be the most powerful character...

 

[Desdichado]

No, Vaxalon, that's the OPPOSITE of what I'm saying. I want to tone down the spell-casters so that if I tone down magic items in the game, they don't vastly outstrip the fighters, rogues, etc. of the world.

 

[Sinistar]

Good topic Forrester!

The real problems with this come not necessarily in PVP play but more with setting expectations with critters as well. If it is a main villain, he can always have a back up rod of blasting that the party did not count on. but if it is an Owlbear what can he pull out?

Specific to your examples, would a 9th level fighter who is normally equipped be able to take out a creature of EL 9? Would a 15th level fighter with no equipment be able to take out a creature of EL9? much less 15. At those levels you are looking at damage resistance as a good possibility. If not DR then you would have high AC. Maybe even some flight or other ability that puts you out of range.

It would be nice to be able to calculate the amount that treasure figures into the EL levels.

 

[Alcamtar]

Re: Thoughts . . .

2) A good GM can and should control his campaign so that it's NOT all about the "magic shoppe", and make it so that even if the requisite amount of gold and items are handed out, getting items that are *ideal* for character power maximization is difficult. (Credit to creamsteak, hong, Tengar, Tallow)

--This is a separate issue. I agree that a good GM should, and needs, to do this.

What controls exist -- in the system -- to support the DM in this?

I don't mean rule zero, but specific rules. Rule zero is discussed in the DMG, but never explicitly stated in the PHB. Most references to the DM in the PHB are one of these general types:
(1) DM will do X secretly
(2) DM will use a table or formula to decide X
(3) You may be able to talk the DM into letting you do X
(4) DM decides X if it's not covered in these rules

None of these are really restricting the player.

I went through half the PHB (all except spells) and only found nine instances in 170 pages that it said the DM might restrict or not allow a player to do something that is otherwise allowed. Each was a specific reference, rather than a general blanket statement.

I actually found one rule which said "if there's something you want and you don't see it, negotiate with the DM on a fair price, and THEN YOU CAN have it." Other rules qualify DM adjudication by saying he'll decide, but he will follow this or that rule in making the decision.

My point is that while the DMG talks about how the DM has all this authority, it is poorly communicated to the players if at all. A normal reading of the PHB gives a strong impression that the DM must play by the rules, if for no other reason than by omission of statements to the contrary. He sometimes can decide this or that, but must follow rules guidelines, and mostly his function is just to do things secretly and run the NPCs.

I think that while rule zero gets a lot of lip service, it is poorly implemented, and the books give a subconscious message that it doesn't really exist except in specific cases when the DM has explicit permission to exercise it. My players told me that they like 3E specifically because they have a lot of control over the game, and the DM is not allowed to be arbitrary. I don't know where they got this idea, because they are good players in other games and don't give me flak, but in 3E they do.

SO, what I'm wondering is, given an pervasive attitude that the rules are sacred and the DM can't just arbitrarily deny things to the players, what rules exist that he can use to control magic in the game? Because if the players expect control and then meet with GM fiat, they'll get very frustrated. No RPG should be frustrating.

Mike

 

[Furn_Darkside]

Re: Some individual responses . . .

Furn_Darkside: Obviously, you have to use the "all else being equal" setup here. Assume equal tactical abilities on both sides of the battle (9th level fighter vs 15th level fighter). Say it was best of three battles, with three starting distances/terrain.

Salutations

The problem is that it is not likely that all else will be equal.

In 2nd edition you could assume that a fighter is a fighter is a fighter. In fact, consider the lack of hp growth after 10th lvl or so- there would not be much difference at all beyond Thac0 and saves.

In 3rd edition, especially with non-core products added, fighters can be very different.

Especially when designing them for a one-shot to defeat a specific enemy versus what comes about due to a campeign.

All in all, I'm guessing that 80% of the outcome is going to depend on the to-hit bonus of each, the armor class of each, the average damage each does, and the average hp of each, though.

I suppose if they sit there and slug away at each other, yeah, that would be true.

Respectfully submitted
FD

 

[Desdichado]

Yes, but treasure tables are in the DMG, where the message is very different.

Besides, I think it's a bit naive to say that players read the PHB and DMs read the other books. Many players also DM, and if they don't, they think about it, have done it, or at least read the relevant books anyway.