Naked Adventurers (no, it's not what you think)

[Forrester]

Furn -- based on what I'm trying to do, you'd design the two fighters for a campaign, not for a one-shot. And then pit them against each other. Now, there'd be a variety of ways to build them, the most notable being Mr. Plate Armor vs Mr. Spring-Attacky Chain Shirt, but in general what I'm looking for is the "average" 9th level guy vs. the "average" 15th level guy using the same philosophy.

So a 9th level fighter with the Spring Attack chain vs. a 15th level fighter with the same chain. Or put both in Plate Armor and have them slug away. Exact same point buys (high Con? high Str? High Dex?) and so on.

EXAMPLE:

A 9th level guy has 36k to spend. Let's make him Plate Armor boy.

That's a +2 Longsword (8k), +3 Plate (9k), +2 Shield (4k), Amulet Natural Armor +1 (2k), Ring Prot +1 (2k), Cloak Protection +2 (4k), assorted potions (3k), Gloves Dex +2 (4k) = 35k.

And let's say he drinks a Potion of Bull's Strength and a Potion of Endurance before combat, giving him a +2 to Con and +2 to strength. (I'll be nice.) He's got plenty of them to spare, after all.

9th level guy (32 point buy+enhancements):
22Str, 18Con, 12Dex, 10Int, 10Wis, 8Chr

15th level guy (32 point buy)
21Str, 16Con, 10Dex, 10Int, 10Wis, 8Chr

(Yes, the 15th level guy gets a little screwed bcs he's one level short of getting an extra ability point).

Let's assume both have WFocus/WSpecialization. I'll give the 15th level fighter a MW sword, bcs I'm nice.

9th level BAB: +18/+13
15th level BAB: +22/+17/+12

9th level Dmg: d8+10
15th level Dmg: d8+7

9th level AC: 28
15th level AC: 20

9th level hp: 90hp
15th level hp: 132hp

By my completely unchecked calculations, in a smashee-smashee battle where both just take full attack actions to beat the crap out of each other:

The 9th level fighter will do an average of 23.9 damage/round.
The 15th level fighter will do an average of 17.25 damage/round.

The 9th level fighter will drop (assuming he doesn't drink a Potion of Cure Serious at some point) in 5.2 rounds.

The 15th level fighter will drop in 5.5 rounds.

Advantage: 15th level fighter. BARELY.. If the 9th level fighter manages to drink a Potion of Cure Serious, or has a more creative magic-item selection, the 15th level fighter is probably screwed. Unless he can do something with his 6th or 7th (or whatever) feats to turn the tide. Unless these are the cheatiest splatbook feats in the world, I'm doubtful.

And Mr. 15th level fighter is supposed to be *eight times* as powerful as Mr. 9th level fighter. That's scary.

 

[CRG]

Can we put something together?

Where would be a place to discuss putting something actually together, where people would brainstorm on this topic?

Here's what I'm thinking....

There are three basic kinds of rewards / measures.
(1) experience (and thus levels)
(2) magical equipment
(3) financial (includes base equipment and supplies)

There are rules that equate magic items back to financial costs. In reality though, to the 9th level fighter. When it comes down to it though, there could conceivably be a difference between a "rich" 9th level fighter and a "normal" 9th level fighter. In terms of game play, however, you'd hope that items (1) and (2) are roughly in balance (since artwork or a keep doesn't mean much when they face off with each other). That said, if you looked at things this way you could at least match up relative equipment strengths. This might be a start to matching up EL/CR.

Magical equipment could be based on the sample table in the DMG that deals with average treasure - as long as we assume that most folks will trade in some large amount of their wealth over time for magic items to better smite their foes (which is a decent assumption). Any non-magical item wealth is essentially extraneous and exists only as a RP tool for your local game.

What does everyone think? Where should this discussion continue?

 

[RangerWickett]

First, I need to point out that the rules I present are simply a way for DMs to balance their games without having to give out treasure. It does not mean that Regdar can walk into a 7-11, plunk down 32,000 gp, and learn to fly. Rather, the DM should tell her players, "I don't plan to give out too much treasure, so instead I will award you Hero Points, so you can gain your own powers."

Of course, if you want, the DM could allow characters to sacrifice their money and goods as an offering to the gods. Say a paladin does not want to be weighted down with worldly goods, so she gives her magical armor and magical sword to a temple. In exchange, her god may bless her with natural powers.

Second, I wanted to clarify that the Hero Point rules in Nat20's book are wholly compatible with D&D. A lot of other companies (Green Ronin, Fiery Dragon, etc.) are putting out wholly distinct sets of superhero rules, so we decided to make ours as modular as possible.

It's balanced to work with D&D just fine. A Fighter 5 is balanced against a Hero 5 or a Sorcerer 2/Hero 3. One of the sample characters in the book is a Druid 6/Fighter 4/Hero 20, though she may need to be revised once I see how the epic-level rules actually work.

Morrus also assures me that the rules port over to Spycraft just fine, so for the moment we're endorsing the Spycraft system for modern games, though you don't have to use departments if you don't want to. Hopefully we'll also be balanced with the d20 Modern rules, whenever they come out. We didn't feel like waiting 'til November.

Really quick, the sample NPCs from the book are as follows. Oh, and FYI, Specialist is a new class we came up with to represent wholly skill-based characters. I know that other systems have their own classes like that, but the closest D&D has is the NPC-class Expert, which is too weak. The Specialist is a better Expert, on par with PC classes. Also, Detective and Gadgeteer are prestige classes.

Blitz Jagger, 'The Shade': Pulp 1930's detective with the ability to pass through walls as a ghost. Hero 5/Specialist 3/Fighter 2/Detective 1.
Layla Adrian, 'Larcen': Modern day art dealer and cat burgular extraordinaire. Specialist 3/Hero 9/Rogue 8.
Rianna Soliogn, 'Gale': Steam-age Elvish eco-terrorist turned hero when she is forced to fight her nemesis, Cog (see below). Druid 6/Fighter 4/Hero 20.
Tinker Oddcog, 'Cog': Steam-age Gnomish engineer turned villain because of his desire for revenge. Others spurned him and his ability to naturally control machinery, so he seeks to kill them by causing disasters with the new modern technology of the era. Hero 12/Specialist 8/Gadgeteer 10.
Zidi Wheatling, 'The Halfling Titan': Traditional fantasy setting halfling girl, blessed by fey to have phenomenal strength and resilience. Hero 8/Fighter 1.



Third, to Forrester: Reading this thread last night, I began to wonder how accurate my rules were in depicting how much weaker a no-magic character is than a full-magic character, to see if my idea was backwards compatible.

Okay, each level of Hero grants you 8 Hero Points (HrPs). So a 13th level Hero has 104 HrPs. Using a little algebra and some assumptions, we'll say that any 13th level character is the equivalent of 104 HrPs.

Now, the recommended wealth for 13th level PCs is 110,000 gp, which is worth 20 HrPs on the scale I devised for exchanging super powers for money. Thus, a 13th level Hero with magic items is worth 124 HrPs.

A plain 15th level character with no magic items is worth 120 HrPs (15 x 8), so by my scale, a 15th level character without magic items is about the same strength as a 13th level character with magic items.

Mind you, I haven't tested this backward version of the rules, so I can't be sure how accurate it is, and it generally assumes you'll be getting a few powerful abilities (i.e., only big weapons and items count, not potions and scrolls), and not a lot of small ones. However, I think it might serve as a way to gauge relative power when one is deprived of your items.

I hope that clears things up, or at least opens up new ideas for discussion.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

First of all, I always find this subject amusing because my experience is that characters in 3e have very, very little magic relative to 1e/2e campaigns. The differences are caused by the mechanics. 3e characters level more quickly so they do not "linger" piling up huge quantities of magic items.

Second of all, most of you are massively underestimating the power of high level spells. A naked 15th level single class spellcaster will clean the clock of an equipped 9th level character 10 times out of 10. Take a look at the list of 7th and 8th level spells again.

Equipment is extremely important to non-spellcasters because so many D&D dilemmas are unsolvable without magic.

 

[CRG]

Hmmm....(looking for where to buy Nat20 supers)....

Is everyone just the one class?

 

[Forrester]

First of all, I always find this subject amusing because my experience is that characters in 3e have very, very little magic relative to 1e/2e campaigns. The differences are caused by the mechanics. 3e characters level more quickly so they do not "linger" piling up huge quantities of magic items.

Second of all, most of you are massively underestimating the power of high level spells. A naked 15th level single class spellcaster will clean the clock of an equipped 9th level character 10 times out of 10. Take a look at the list of 7th and 8th level spells again.

Equipment is extremely important to non-spellcasters because so many D&D dilemmas are unsolvable without magic.

Of course, you could argue (in fact, I have) that a naked 9th level single class wizard could clean the clock of an equipped 9th level non-spellcaster in a duel. Improved Invis, Haste, Fly, and start having fun.

Meaning the cross-class duels are less interesting questions -- as are, come to think of it, most duels involving spellcasters. The big thing about spellcasters is that they run out of spells, *and* they need to be protected more when they have no equipment.

Hence the suggestion above for a more scientific investigation of the problem . . . make a 9th level and a 15th level party, create some set encounters, and see which one drops first.

 

[RangerWickett]

Natural 20 Press's supers book will be coming out for pdf sale in about 2 weeks. You'll be able to buy it at RPGNow.com A rough version of the same rules I've been presenting here is available in issue 6 of Asgard magazine, which you can download from www.enworld.org

The supers book has a bad title right now, and I'm miffed at Russ for not making it shorter, so I'm currently refusing to type the full name. It's something like the Ultimate Superhero Toolkit. *shrug*

In Nat20 Supers, the rules are presented to be compatible first and foremost with D&D, since we assume that most D20 players play D&D. You can still use all the core classes and prestige classes you want, though if you're playing in a modern setting, your DM might say "no spellcasters."

Additionally, the book presents two core classes and four prestige classes. The main core class we present is the Hero, which gains Hero Points to let you get super powers. It progresses at the same rate as all the other classes, so don't expect to be too terribly powerful at low level. If you devote all your resources to strength and lifting, I think you can manage to lift a half ton at 1st level, but that's about all you'll be able to do. Impressive, but not the most useful thing.

Once you get up to 5th level or so, though, you'll start having access to some of the cooler powers, like flight, phasing, and powerful energy blasts. At 20th level, when wizards are flinging around meteor swarms, Heroes will have access to understandably powerful abilities, like the ability to fly at the speed of sound (cool, but teleport is faster), throw tanks hundreds of feet, or have gadgets that fire huge energy blasts. Overall, super powers are a little weaker than spells you could have at the same level, but they are usually unlimited in how often you can use them. Most characters from comics would be Heroes.

The second core class is the Specialist, which is sort of a beefed-up Expert. 10 skill points/level, an ability akin to bardic knowledge, and a few bonus feats. They represent the everyman, who might be a brilliant lawyer or scientist, but can't sneak attack, wear plate armor, or cast spells. Lex Luthor would be a Specialist.

The four prestige classes are Detective, Gadgeteer, Menacing Vigilante, and Mentor.

The Detective focuses on tracking down information, especially in areas rife with crime. Batman had the full 5 levels of Detective (plus a bunch of other levels).

The Gadgeteer gives you the ability to modify and combine gadget-based super powers. Instead of having an eyebeam of fire, you could have a shoulder-mounted laser, or a powerful flamethrower. Batman probably had a level or two of Gadgeteer, while Iron Man had the full 10 levels.

The Menacing Vigilante relies on his own fearful reputation to empower himself in combat against criminals and evil-doers. Batman and the Punisher both were Menacing Vigilantes.

The Mentor is more of a support character, though he can easily be a full member of the party, kind of like a bard with no spells. He can provide his allies insight into his own skills, which will aid them in their endeavors. Professor X, Alfred Pennyworth, and that old guy from Buffy were all Mentors.

 

[Nightfall]

Do you actually get paid for every reference you make?

FD

Nope but if I did, I'd be making a run at Bill Gate's fortune.

 

[Forrester]

CRG -- I think that this is a fine place to pursue further investigation of this, but I really think that the place to start would be to try to get a handle on how much more powerful a party, as a whole (the "traditional" party) is made by its equipment.

Any volunteers for trying out what I proposed -- namely, creating a few parties, running them through some set encounters with some players we wrangle into this for a one-shot at our respective locations, and then compare notes?

 

[Al]

With regard to the mage-battle, it's a question of Initiative.

If the 9th level wizard wins, his best bet is Feeblemind. We'll give him a base 16 Int, bumped up to 18, +2 for his Headband and Spell Focus (Enchantment). His DC is thus 22, effective DC 26.

The 15th level wizard's save is (assuming, say, 12 Wis) +10. Therefore, he needs a 16 or he's a dribbling idiot (at which point I think it's fair to say that 9th level wizard wins).

If the 15th level wizard wins initiative, it's a walkover. Kick off with a Quickened Haste and then Otto's Irresistable Dance (giving another minimum 2 rounds) then an arsenal of assault spells (four Maximised Fireballs should do the trick: 120 damage if ALL saves are met: saving on 20s, pretty unlikely). Thus, if the 15th level wizard wins initiative, it's fair to say that he wins automatically (NB: If the 9th level wizard is too far away, use your partial action to teleport adjacent then Otto's ID). Admittedly, he has to touch attack the 9th level wizard, but that's probably not a problem (using familiar, it charging should hit on 2s- and has a partial action to attack again if worst comes to worst).

But who's going to win initiative? The answer is based on whether the 15th level wizard has preparation time (for e.g. Empowered Cat's Grace). If he does, the odds are in his favour. If not, the 9th level wizard (assuming Gloves of Dexterity) has the edge- but not significant enough to make the difference between having a 1 in 4 of winning (if 9th level wins) as opposed to if 15th level wins.

That's ignoring Contingency. Contingency: Wall of Force is going to prove a problem for the 9th level wizard (yes, he can get Passwall, but then he can't get off another spell.)