Naked Adventurers (no, it's not what you think)

[Tallow]

Rules for EL based on Magic

I believe the DMG *HAS* rules, albeit a bit vague and/or ambiguous, for altering a challenge rating and/or encounter level based on the magic a creature and/or encounter has.

I don't remember what the rules said, and I don't have my DMG with me right now at work, but...

An off the cuff rule I usually use while DM'ing or Designing an adventure, is to look at the base states for the creature/encounter. If it increases by roughly 50% in its base stats/power level, then increase the CR by 1. You can kinda see this in the difference between a Gnome and a Svirfneblin, or an Elf and a Drow. Of course some special abilities are going to increase challenge rating by one or two simply because they have it.

Another arbitrary way to adjust CR accordingly, is to take a look at the old Second Edition chart in the DMG for monster hit dice bonuses/penalties based on particular special abilities for calculating the modified "level" of a monster for experience point awards. Fly I believe added 1 hit dice while a single attack at over 50 damage max was a plus 3 hit dice. These modifiers could actually, and easily, be used for 3E.

These things can also be used to modify the average character level. A 9th level fighter who's base stats (includes the 4th and 8th level ability bump)--sans magic aide--are improved by 50% with magic, should be considered a 10th level fighter when calculating average party level. EL's, CR's and sometimes even XP if they walk through the fight, should be altered. This should really only be done if they have enough magic to make the standard EL and CR calculations a cake walk.

In any case, this argument is rather a moot point. As I pointed out before, the naked 15th level fighter vs. the loaded 9th level fighter should never happen in a well run campaign. Villains and monsters and encounters should be designed to be appropriately difficult for the loaded fighter. The entire rules of the game are based on the fact, that by 9th level and 15th level, the players will have wealth equal to the wealth calculating chart for if you wanted to start a brand new 9th or 15th level character. If you start a 3rd level character, you start with something like 2 grand in gold. A 9th level character gets like 27 grand in gold.

Another mistake being made in the above fight calculation, is that the 15th level fighter DOES have 5 more feats and one more attack, than the 9th level fighter. Those 5 additional feats could be very instrumental in flat out winning the fight.

Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Whirlwind Attack, Supreme Cleave, Improved Critical, Spring Attack, etc all can have major effects if one has it, and the other doesn't. All things for both fighters will be equal up to 9th level. But the fighter doesn't stop becoming a better fighter from 10th to 15th simply because he's naked. After all, he DID become a 15th level fighter.

Andy Christian

 

[Hammerhead]

Magic items work very differently for spell casters and non spellcasters.

A spell caster's magical toys only boost his existing abilities, in most cases. A wizard with bracers of armor has only a marginal advantage against the guy casting mage armor. A wand of fireballs only adds some endurance to a caster, his main attack is unchanged - it's still fireball. The exceptions come in when a caster gets an item based off a different spell list, such as a cleric with boots of speed. He can't haste himself, so the item actually is a new ability.

For a non magical type, such as a fighter, most items add new distinct abilities. A magic weapon gives him the ability to strike magical creatures with DR. His celestial armor lets him fly. He completely lacks these abilities without magic items. Of course, magic weapons and armor also boost his abilities in taking and dishing out damage.

A magically able character, while perhaps lacking in raw power, will often be able leverage his magical advantage to win. For example, your 9th versus 15th sluggathon shows a straight up fight. However, a magical character could fly via spell or item and rain down death. Spells like stoneskin or prot arrows and items like Invulnerability armor or vestments of faith take the worst off non magic attacks. Some spells such as fly or improved invis are very good for taking advantage. Even a well equiped fighter had better have see invisibility goggles and good movement/ranged attacks if he wants to beat a spellcaster.

In my opinion, the ability to deal with flying and or invisible enemies is almost essential at higher levels. True story: 7 characters that all were flying and improved invis (among other things) expecting a mass haste attacked 2 flying, improved invis enemies, at least one of whom had a haste up. Average level in the group was 10, IIRC.

Groups are much more complicated. The effectiveness of the group will probably depend mostly on the teamwork used. A group with little magic and selfish spellcasters won't be very effective, while a group whose casters toss mass haste, GMWs, Magic Vestments could probably operate at a fairly high level of effectiveness, although they would run out of good spells faster. Because the problems with non magic classes in a low magic environment, you'd probably also see a very different optimal party. For example, replacing the fighter with another cleric could work well, as the cleric effectively has +5 weapons and armor, and can use persistent or quickened spells to expand his abilities. Also, he'd be more resistent to most spells. A 15th level fighter's will save is very poor without a powerful cloak of resistance.

 

[Forrester]

Re: Rules for EL based on Magic

In any case, this argument is rather a moot point. As I pointed out before, the naked 15th level fighter vs. the loaded 9th level fighter should never happen in a well run campaign. Villains and monsters and encounters should be designed to be appropriately difficult for the loaded fighter. The entire rules of the game are based on the fact, that by 9th level and 15th level, the players will have wealth equal to the wealth calculating chart for if you wanted to start a brand new 9th or 15th level character. . .

Another mistake being made in the above fight calculation, is that the 15th level fighter DOES have 5 more feats and one more attack, than the 9th level fighter. Those 5 additional feats could be very instrumental in flat out winning the fight.

You're completely missing the point, which is that we want to know/are concerned about the fact that "the entire rules of the game" seem to lead to high-level fighters being COMPLETELY DEPENDENT on magic items w/regard to their power level. Everyone knows how to use the rules to give characters equipment. But suppose someone wants to have a campaign that hands out extra magic, or less magic. Or wants to pit PCs against enemies that have more magic than usual. How does this affect CRs? How does this affect class balance?

Inquiring minds want to know. If magic equipment is so important that it multiplies a character's base strength eightfold . . . or more . . . it's something that someone who doesn't play exactly according to the DMG treasure-distribution lists needs to account for.

Second, what feats do you think the 15th level fighter will be able to use to maximize his advantage against the 9th level fighter? The best feats are taken early on, and the 15th level fighter isn't going to be able to do much with Supreme Cleave or Whirlwind Attack or whatnot, against the 9th level guy. Admittedly, they'll come in handy against other opponents -- I just think that at some point there's Feat Fatigue. So to speak. The important ones for the character can almost all be taken by 9th or 10th level. The rest are just gravy. And not a very meaty gravy.

 

[Ace]

First of all, I always find this subject amusing because my experience is that characters in 3e have very, very little magic relative to 1e/2e campaigns. The differences are caused by the mechanics. 3e characters level more quickly so they do not "linger" piling up huge quantities of magic items.

Second of all, most of you are massively underestimating the power of high level spells. A naked 15th level single class spellcaster will clean the clock of an equipped 9th level character 10 times out of 10. Take a look at the list of 7th and 8th level spells again.

Equipment is extremely important to non-spellcasters because so many D&D dilemmas are unsolvable without magic.

Excellent points.

I have two methods I use to handle magic items IMC

#1 High Magic.

Magic is a technology. Anything in the DMG can be bought if the town is big enough. Heck sometimes I assume magic has been around for several hundred years and all the permenant stuff has added up.
Needless to say this looks nothing like a medieval world.
Best analogy mostly incomplete, futuristic war with swords---
This is because there are is instant communication, instant resupply, instant reinforcements and massive firepower on demand (wizard with fireball gauntlet extended range and enegy substituted, missle shielded with high AC and flight) and spec war troops (teleport w/o error 2x day rings, inviso gear and more stuff to destroy the enemies cities and fields)

A better solution I prefer for a "normal" fantasy feel is to rule that all magic items require rare power components. Want a cloak of stealth? No problem you will need Giant Spider silk and a other dangerous things.
I generally presume that adventurers have access to about 1 permanent item per 3 levels gained.
Disposable stuff (potion, talisman and scoll) can be made with normal ingredients.
Two more little bits, Normal stuff can be enchanted to +1 this is called "spellforged" or "spellworked' and can be bought as usual
Also weak magic items are rare, there is little point in making a +1 ring. Many items are either strong or scale up and everything has a history.
This way the players can buy minor stuff if they like but I can control magic item proliferation.
If you want to try this Iwould suggest using a defense bonus option though, 3e classes are assumed to have access to certain items and if they don't it may get slightly unbalanced.

 

[CRG]

Ok - point taken on the 9th vs 15th deal.

Wicket - so with the D20 classes, presumably the specialist and other prestige classes would have some sort of 'equipment' that levels the playing field, right? Is this measured in "cash" or "hero points"? (you see what I'm driving at?)

 

[Forrester]

Schmoe vs. Epic-Level Dingus

It just occurred to me that especially because their BAB goes up slower after level 20, 95% of the power (if not more) of an Epic-Level fighter comes not from his own powers, but from his magic items.

His Epic-level feats notwithstanding, I'm betting.

Theoretically, a 30th level fighter should be able to take on 64 18th level fighters. Admittedly, this may be bending or breaking the CR rules, which were never that great at high levels, but the point is that a 30th level fighter is a HELLUVA lot more powerful than an 18th level guy.

I wonder . . . if we put a fully equipped 18th level guy against a 30th level guy what would happen.

If it's an even match -- or if it's even close (i.e., it seems that a couple 18th level fighters, or one 20th level fighter could do Epic-Boy in), it means that about 3% of that fighter's strength comes from his level, and 97% of it comes from his magic items. (This assumes that indeed, a fully-equipped 30th level fighter would be a match, or more than a match, for dozens of 18th level fighters.)

Is that Hero system done yet, Wickett? It's sounding better and better all the time.

 

[Furn_Darkside]

Re: Re: Rules for EL based on Magic

Second, what feats do you think the 15th level fighter will be able to use to maximize his advantage against the 9th level fighter? The best feats are taken early on, and the 15th level fighter isn't going to be able to do much with Supreme Cleave or Whirlwind Attack or whatnot, against the 9th level guy. Admittedly, they'll come in handy against other opponents -- I just think that at some point there's Feat Fatigue. So to speak. The important ones for the character can almost all be taken by 9th or 10th level. The rest are just gravy. And not a very meaty gravy.

Salutations,

(argh, I wish this was not such a busy day and I was more involved in this discussion)

This is only true if you follow the core rules- the moment you add splat books and 3rd party books in the mix, there are higher level feats in the mix.

On just the core books, yes, I agree it was a failing there were no good high level combat feats.

On a side note- you keep mentioning the 15th lvl warrior is supposed to be 8 times more powerful then the 9th- where are you taking that from? I would imagine the growth in power through levels is not a straight line, but a curve.. with the growth on the front end of the scale.

Respectfully submitted
FD

 

[CRG]

On a side note- you keep mentioning the 15th lvl warrior is supposed to be 8 times more powerful then the 9th- where are you taking that from? I would imagine the growth in power through levels is not a straight line, but a curve.. with the growth on the front end of the scale.

The DMG has a thing in the description of CR and EL where it basically says a single CR x creature is about as powerful as 2 CR x-2 creatures.

So 1 CR 15 = 2 CR 13 = 4 CR 11 = 8 CR 9

etc.

 

[Ace]

I don't think that either the ECL's or the CR stuff works very well.

All of those assumtions were made with Standard gear alotments, party of 4 and 25 point buy in mind

Change any parameter and the math goes out the window.

My ad-hoc claculation, match hit dice---

An encounter with a roughly equal number of hit dice should balance OK IME

Now as too the equation of 9th level with magic VS 15th level without. My money is on the 9th level charcter.
He may have only 45% of the hitpoints but he will be harder to hit, hit harder and depending on what magic is out here, may be well unstoppable.

Give the 9th level fighter a ring of stoneskin 3 charges (10th level) -- cost 6000 if he has a chance to activate it kiss the 15th level fighter goodbye.

 

[Furn_Darkside]

The DMG has a thing in the description of CR and EL where it basically says a single CR x creature is about as powerful as 2 CR x-2 creatures.

So 1 CR 15 = 2 CR 13 = 4 CR 11 = 8 CR 9

etc.

Salutations,

Hmm. thanks- that is interesting, and quite silly.

a 9th lvl fighter is not that far from a 15th lvl fighter in power

Even if the 15th lvl had all the treasure appropriate for his level, he would be wiped out by 8 9th lvl warriors with full equipment.

I don't really pay much attention to the CR's- I guess this is another good reason why.

FD