Naked Adventurers (no, it's not what you think)

Furn_Darkside said:


Salutations,

Hmm. thanks- that is interesting, and quite silly.

a 9th lvl fighter is not that far from a 15th lvl fighter in power

Even if the 15th lvl had all the treasure appropriate for his level, he would be wiped out by 8 9th lvl warriors with full equipment.

I don't really pay much attention to the CR's- I guess this is another good reason why.

FD

Again, Math is your Friend . . . and it shows why the system breaks down at high levels -- and becomes a matter of Who Has The Most Toys.

It SEEMS as though the 15th level guy should be wiped out by eight ninth level fighters. He won't.

Because he's got 200,000gp to spend.

That's an Amulet of Natural Armor +4 (36k), Plate +5(25k), Shield +5(25k), Ring Protection +4(36k), Boots of Speed(10k), Longsword +3(18k), Belt of +6 Giant Strength (36k), and assorted potions and toys and whatnot (14k).

After quaffing his Potion of Cat's Grace, our 15th level fighter has an AC of 39 (not including what he gets if he's hasted).

For simplicity's sake, let's use the buffed up 9th level fighter that I posted above. He's got a BAB of +18/+13.

How do you suggest he go about hitting the 15th level guy in combat?

The 15th level guy now has a BAB of +26/+21/+16. He's going to make mincemeat out of that AC of 28.

In a battle between the two groups, when the 15th level guy is Armored Up, he almost can't miss with his first hit -- and the 9th level guys almost CAN'T hit.

It's going to be a fair fight. But only because there are eight of the 9th level guys.

Take away the 15th level fighter's equipment, and he's barely a match for one of them.

Does everyone see the problem, now?
 

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Forrester said:
Does everyone see the problem, now?

You still seem to believe combat breaks down to people sitting there trading blows. Aid another, disarm, flanking, grapple, trip, and etc all come into play- which makes feats all the more important.

Again, Math is your Friend . . . and it shows why the system breaks down at high levels -- and becomes a matter of Who Has The Most Toys.

Common sense is a better friend.

This is a nice shopping list of magic items, and a great pick for when you are fighting some warriors- it leaves you screwed in a campeign when you face a dragon. We are building characters for campeigns, right?

FD
 

Common sense may be a better friend,

but that doesn't mean he's a friend of yours.

Grapple? Before I enter combat I'll blow an Oil of Slipperiness.
Trip? Potion of Flying, or Wings of Flying (22k for the latter, I think I'll be able to find it somewhere).
Disarm? Locked gauntlet. And my BAB/strength bonus is a bit higher than your guys'.

Flanking? You're kidding, right? AC39, 43 with Haste, up to 48 with Expertise. You have fun with that +18BAB, there. Ooh, it's +20 with flanking! Run away! Run away!

Feats -- as you are so fond of pointing out to me, the 15th level fighter is going to have more of them than the 9th level guys. If I get bored, I could just start Sundering all of your weapons, I suppose. Lord knows you won't be able to Sunder mine.

And as far as Dragons go, I understand that having a 39AC doesn't suck against them. At least, not against the ones I'd be expected to go up against when 15th level.

To keep things simple, I made all of the fighters heavy on combat capabilities, hp, and BAB. If I made them all springy, the result would be the same. If I made them all spend 25% of their loot on non-direct-combat magics, the result would be the same.

I'm baffled that you aren't getting it.
 

Re: Common sense may be a better friend,

Forrester said:

I'm baffled that you aren't getting it.

I am getting that you are becoming more rude by the post.

I get that you will go against things you already stated- your campeign fighter is becoming more and more a counter for the planned battle.

I get how magic items are a part of d&d, and am not surprised by their importance. It is a highly magical game if you use the rule books as they are printed.

I get that if you want a lower magic game, then you need to make the effort on what creatures/classes/magic items to allow.

I get the game is what you make of it.

What I don't get is why I am wasting time on someone who starts a discussion only to poorly treat those who reply. Or is it just doesn't agree with these deep thoughts?

FD
 

CRG said:
Ok - point taken on the 9th vs 15th deal.

Wicket - so with the D20 classes, presumably the specialist and other prestige classes would have some sort of 'equipment' that levels the playing field, right? Is this measured in "cash" or "hero points"? (you see what I'm driving at?)

Well, I think I know what you mean. Hmm. Remind me to clarify this in the rules in the book too. I have all of three days left to make changes before we send it to layout.

The Hero class gets Hero Points based on its level, 8 per level. However, they do not automatically get bonus Hero Points in exchange for magic items.

Medieval Supers: Here, the primary foes will be monsters, and in order for characters to be balanced with their foes, they need magic items to increase their power. Use the suggested wealth presented in the DMG, but if you want a lower-magic setting, or if a character's backstory would not allow him to have magic items though he's high level, you can give out Hero Points instead, using the guidelines in the book.

Modern Supers: Here, there might still be magic, but the primary foes will be other people, since there aren't as many monsters. You don't need magic items to be balanced against other characters; just go by class level. Thus, you can wholly ignore the suggested wealth.



If you're using the table of suggested wealth, the rules in supers simply gives you an option of what players can have instead of magic items. You do not have to give one or the other if you don't want to.

Did I explain that well enough?
 

What combat options do the9th level guys have? Sundering a fully equiped 15th level fighter's weapon will be impossible.

Grappling provokes an AoO. If the AoO hits (near certainty), then the grapple attempt is ruined. Even if it doesn't hit, the contest becomes oppposed STR+base attack+size (probably not relevant). The higher level fighter will probably have higher STR and will have higher base attack, so he still has an advantage. The gap isn't as great, true, but it should cover the fact that only a handful of grapple attempts will reach that point.

Disarms provoke AoO as well. Of course, some of the 9th level characters could have improved disarm, but the opposed attack role is still ratehr unlikely. And locked gauntlets do help.

Of all the combat moves a trip attack has the best chance of success, since it's an easy touch attack followed by a STR vs STR test. Of course, the 9th level fighters will still have serious problems hitting even their prone opponent.

What else are they going to do? Bull rush?

Also, since the cleave and whirlwind chains are very helpful against multiple enemies, the 15th level fighter could easily make better use of his feats. If he has whirlwind and sunder, he could shatter the weapons of several of his enemies in on fell swoop.

About the only critical item that Forrester's fighter lacks are cloaks of resistence and other save boosters. Downgrade the amulet of natural armor and the ring of protection by one each and buy a +5 cloak. The 15th level fighter now has 23k extra instead of 14. Enough to buy some flight or see invisible items. Dragon fights are team battles anyway. If the group is so messed up as to not cast fly and protection from elements (and other neccessary) spells on people without them, then it stands little chance regardless of any particular character's loadout.
 

Hammerhead said:
Grappling provokes an AoO. If the AoO hits (near certainty), then the grapple attempt is ruined.

Improved grapple feat.

The higher level fighter will probably have higher STR and will have higher base attack, so he still has an advantage. The gap isn't as great, true, but it should cover the fact that only a handful of grapple attempts will reach that point.

Aid another with the Improved Aid feat.

Disarms provoke AoO as well. Of course, some of the 9th level characters could have improved disarm, but the opposed attack role is still ratehr unlikely. And locked gauntlets do help.

Improved disarm feat.

And Forrester already made his "campeign" fighter's equipment list- it is against his own rules to change the equipment for this one-shot fight.

Of all the combat moves a trip attack has the best chance of success, since it's an easy touch attack followed by a STR vs STR test. Of course, the 9th level fighters will still have serious problems hitting even their prone opponent.

Along with the aid, then add the dual strike feat.

If even more help is needed to hit a target, then Bow of True Arrows is always available.

What else are they going to do?

Use their wide array of magic items? After all, 9 campeign fighters are not going to be carbon clones of each other.

A bracelet of friends in the beginning of combat could end the whole thing.

Dragon fights are team battles anyway.

D&D is about team battles.

FD
 
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Legendary Items

CRG said:
This sounds very interesting.

Does anyone have any thoughts as to how this could be implemented for D&D? Would it need to be class weighted (seems like it should be)?

Well, Earthdawn has a really nice justification for the source of magical power and magical items in its campaign setting. Essentially, magical power comes from one's "fame factor". If you build yourself up into a legendary hero by doing lots of things that people tell stories about, you have more magical power. If a sword gets used to slay a unique and powerful dragon and starts to grow its own legend, then it might turn into a Dragon Bane sword. Under such a system, hereditary items could become very powerful indeed.

A gloss on these rules relates the character's "hero factor" to the powers that can be unlocked in a magical item--a bit Middle-Earth in that sense. So Joe Blow the unknown fighter might find a legendary sword, and the Bard might recognize it for what it is; but it just acts like a masterwork sword for him until his own legend/karma/character level grows strong enough to unlock greater powers. Maybe the first act of heroism is enough to make it work like a +1 sword, and he has to slay a dragon himself before it becomes a dragon bane for him.

I don't think it would take too much effort to add this rationale to some game mechanic like the item creation feats or the Samurai (OA) hereditary weapons class ability, and allow characters to exchange gold/xp/legend points/hero points for superior magical items. The Earthdawn rationale also adds some of its own mystique, in that the powers gained by the tools are always related to the character's personal story. This doesn't rule out "found items" with their own legends, of course.

I highly recommend Earthdawn as a source of ideas for any DM--it's a very high-magic world, and very well thought out. I played in it for a few months, and grew dissatisfied with many of its mechanics, but the other material is really top-notch stuff.

--Ben
 

Quick input....

How much does magic item ownership count in the minds of game designers? Check out the "Forsaker" (I believe?) from the Wild Nudists class supplement. He gets a stat increase EVERY LEVEL, in addition to his regular stat advances, massive spell resistance, and many other goodies (don't have book with me right now). Why so much individual power? Because he can't have magic items and needs to be boosted to even be playable.

Just a thought.
 

Furn_Darkside said:

. . . . yadda yadda yadda . . . .

Sorry, FD, but waving your hands and saying "FlankingAidTripGrapple" doesn't cut it. There's not actually an *argument* there, you see.

The fact of the matter is that after the 15th level fighter puts on a locked gauntlet and Oil of Slipperiness, there's not much your 9th level fighters are going to be able to do. The AC of the 15th level fighter is just too damn high, and the ACs of the 9th level fighters are just too damn low.

Admittedly, if you give all of your 9th level fighters cheaty splatbook feats, they might have a slightly better chance. But would it be too much to ask to stick to Core Rules, here? I honestly don't think it makes a difference, but it certainly keeps things simpler.

The 9th level fighters might win -- after all, it's supposed to be an even match. And obviously, tactics would be important. But you seem to think that it wouldn't even be a contest -- that the 9th level fighters would wipe the floor with the 15th level guy. If you would only present some *evidence* to back that up, give some details on how it could actually work, then perhaps we could have a real discussion.

But saying FlankingAidTripGrapple three times fast isn't going to cut it.
 

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