Naked Adventurers (no, it's not what you think)

[Schmoe]

Just FYI, I did some rough calculations on the drive home (I have along drive), pitting an equipped 9th level fighter vs. a 15th level fighter with no magic.

Each character begins with Str-16 Dex-12 Con-14. After level adjustments, Str is 18-19.

The 9th level character has +2 Full plate, +2 Large steel shield, +2 flaming longsword, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Protection, Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2, Bracers of Health +2
HP = 81
Attacks = +17/+12 for 1d8+1d6+9 (with specialization)
AC = 27

The 15th level character has Full Plate, Large steel shield, Masterwork longsword.
HP = 117
Attacks = +21/+16/+11 for 1d8+6 (with specialization)
AC = 21


The 9th level fighter does an average of ~25 points of damage per round, killing the 15th level fighter in about 4.6 rounds.

The 15th level fighter does an average of about 16 points of damage per round, killing the 9th level fighter in about 5.1 rounds.

So, from a purely mathematical standpoint, without adding in any of the countless variables or permutations, a 9th level fighter with magic who has focused on melee combat will be able to out-duel a 15th level fighter who has no magic.

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After a couple more calculations, simply adding a +1 longsword to the 15th level fighter makes it an even fight.

 

[Forrester]

So, from a purely mathematical standpoint, without adding in any of the countless variables or permutations, a 9th level fighter with magic who has focused on melee combat will be able to out-duel a 15th level fighter who has no magic.

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After a couple more calculations, simply adding a +1 longsword to the 15th level fighter makes it an even fight.

Schmoe -- did you see my earlier post on the subject? My figuring (which used slightly different assumptions) put the 15th level fighter ahead -- barely. Still, it's obvious that they're close.

Of course, if I were a 15th level fighter with no magic and a high strength, I'd ditch my crappy large shield and buy a Greatsword. The lower AC is more than made up for by doing 2d6+8 (using your numbers) a hit instead of d8+6.

Still, it's obvious -- a fully equipped 9th level fighter has a chance against an almost naked 15th level fighter. But EIGHT 9th level fighters are struggling like crazy against a fully equipped 15th level fighter. (Yes, FD, it's possible they'd win.)

In other words: youch.

 

[Creamsteak]

Well, one solution to magic items being part of CR that has worked for me is a bit ad-hocked. When there is an encounter that I should know the stats about, but I don't actually have notes or a book handy... I pretend I do.

I start the encounter normally, and I decide about how often and for how much I should hit the party, trying to aim for something they would be fighting at this point. I basically roll dice so it seems like I am actually playing normally, but really I am just doing it for affect.

I hack at the players for a little while till they damage me enough (preferably ending on a critical hit or a spell) and then I describe the creature's defeat. I figure out experience based on the amount of the players resources I used up. So instead of having Set CR's you could gauge experience (secretly) on how much of the players resources were drained. Magic Items would normally be included in resources, so if players have a lack of magic (like 50% of what they "should" have according to the DMG), then you give them that 50% higher CR... basically about two CRs higher.

What do you think of basing a system on that?

 

[phillcalle]

I don't see much of a problem. In real life, sometimes a tool (or several tools) make all the difference. Give me a gun and I can kill a guy who could otherwise beat me up. Give me a car and I can win a race against the fastest man in the world. Give me a plane and I can fly. Give me a calculator and I can solve certain math problems many times faster than I could without. Etc...

To put it another way, would you be shocked that a Call of Cthulhu d20 1st level character with a machine gun could win half of the time against a 5th level character who was only armed with a pistol?

On the other hand, from a roleplaying stand point, I'm not a fan of magic being, essentially, the equivalent of technology. I think it's dull, but I don't see a balance issue.

 

[thallone]

Could Forrester driving a formula-1 race car beat Mario Andretti driving a Yugo?

Only if Forrester is good enough not to wreck teh Formula car.

 

[Forrester]

Only if Forrester is good enough not to wreck teh Formula car.

I have this image of someone giving a +5 sword to a 1st level fighter.

"Now, I want you to BE CAREFUL with this! DON'T BREAK IT!"

 

[thallone]

Re: Re: Thoughts . . .

SO, what I'm wondering is, given an pervasive attitude that the rules are sacred and the DM can't just arbitrarily deny things to the players, what rules exist that he can use to control magic in the game? Because if the players expect control and then meet with GM fiat, they'll get very frustrated. No RPG should be frustrating.

Mike

First off, any player the is telling the GM that the GM is wrong is asking for a Tarrasque to sneak into his tent at night. "Oops, I'm sorry, you'll have to make a Will save DC 52. You failed? Well then, you stand frozen like a statue while the Tarrasque leisurely eats you."

Seriously though. All players should be willing to abide the final say of the GM, or there should be campaign consequences. Think of it as bucking the will of the gods, since the GM is the gods. This doesn't mean that the player can't try to get his or her way in the game, but the player should find that at the very least, the character has to jump through a lot of hoops to do what the GM doesn't want. In other words, the best solution is not to deny the players or their characters anything, just make the things that you don't want more trouble than it's worth.

The player wants that P-Class that you're keeping out of the campaign? Then they have to trek solo across the dying wastes of the Great Desert to the one place in the world that those mystical powers are taught, only to find that the last teacher has mysteriously <insert additional challenge here>. Want that nifty staff of everything? Too bad it's a gods-forged artifact that's currently in the possession of someone that the adventurers respect/revere/fear. Don't deny the mundane, either.

Make things hard to get. Make it so that the PC's have to adventure as long to find the guy that's known to have the nifty trinket they want as they would have to just keep exploring and find it by chance. Or make it that they find someone who knows of the last resting place of just such an item, but they won't tell where for a finder's fee of less than 10 or 20 percent of item value. Not to mention the fact that recovering this relic may well cost the party or the individual far more than the value of the item in expended cash, time, and magic than it's actual value.

I know I've rambled a bit, but the ultimate point is, just because you're denying something from your players that you don't want them to have, doesn't mean that you have to deny then from trying to get it. You just have to make it cost more than they think it's worth. Then, after a bit of this, they should come around and start to go against you less. And if not, they've just opened up all kinds of additional adventure ides for you, just by trying to do the 'impossible'.

 

[Will]

I think Forrester is being misunderstood.

The problem isn't simply that there is more or less magic, the problem is questions like these:

What CR is a Brown Bear that's Awakened (Druid spell) and given 36k of equipment?

What CR is the 18th level King of Poramor, if he just escaped naked from a prison?

What CR is a gnoll who somehow got his hands on 100k of equipment?

I'm quite curious, myself. You can wing it, sure, but before this thread I had only the foggiest idea how equipment compared to innate abilities.

I mean, sure, if you have a bunch of 8th level guys with nothing but +1 weapons, you know that tossing a DR 10/+2 critter at them is a world of pain.

Lacking any idea of CR adjustments based on equipment, making judgements on how to tweak a setting or deal with odd cases becomes very difficult.

 

[Forrester]

I think Forrester is being misunderstood.

The problem isn't simply that there is more or less magic, the problem is questions like these:

What CR is a Brown Bear that's Awakened (Druid spell) and given 36k of equipment?

What CR is the 18th level King of Poramor, if he just escaped naked from a prison?

What CR is a gnoll who somehow got his hands on 100k of equipment?

I'm quite curious, myself. You can wing it, sure, but before this thread I had only the foggiest idea how equipment compared to innate abilities.

I mean, sure, if you have a bunch of 8th level guys with nothing but +1 weapons, you know that tossing a DR 10/+2 critter at them is a world of pain.

Lacking any idea of CR adjustments based on equipment, making judgements on how to tweak a setting or deal with odd cases becomes very difficult.

Thank you, Will. Thank you . You understand!

The CR of the Awakened Brown Bear can actually be dealt with, to some degree, through the CR modifiers that whatshisface came up with -- namely, a suggested CR modifier for PCs of any given animal or monster race.

But the naked 18th level fighter question and the rich rich rich gnoll question are more on target. And I think they need to be answered in a more rigorous fashion than what we've been doing here . . . which is pretty much throwing up our hands and relying on "intuition", which has been shown in some cases to be radically off.

As you say, everyone knows that you throw something with DR X/+2 against a party with +1 weapons, there can be trouble. But there's more going on than just that.

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Side note: In the party I'm DM'ing, there's a 7th level fighter/ranger/barbarian combo with a 22 strength and a +1 Greatsword. Sent him up against a demon with damage reduction 20/+2. What's scary is that between Bull's Strength, Rage, and Power Attack, he was whupping the guy, even after the first 20 points were taken off. Assuming he power attacks for only 5, it's 2d6+1+15+5 = 28pts per hit. Ah, with Bard's song, 29pts per hit. Even at only 9pts per hit after damage reduction, it was enough to gradually mow demon-boy down. Ouch!

 

[hong]

I think Forrester is being misunderstood.

The problem isn't simply that there is more or less magic, the problem is questions like these:

What CR is a Brown Bear that's Awakened (Druid spell) and given 36k of equipment?

What CR is the 18th level King of Poramor, if he just escaped naked from a prison?

What CR is a gnoll who somehow got his hands on 100k of equipment?

Oh, is _that_ all?

If you look at the monsters in the MM, the hulking brutes that have lots of HD but no special abilities tend to have CRs about one-third to one-half their HD. You could apply this same rule of thumb to NPCs who don't have any equipment.