Natural attacks and Class attacks confusion

[Cameron]

I actually did answer that question, it seems you didn't read my post very well, I shall elucidate:

a. As illustrated above, you can already do double damage with lances on AoOs under certain circumstances. So no, I wouldn't have any problem with considering 'charging' to last for as long as the penalty did. I think it fits in better with the idea of 'abstracted simultaneity' that D&D combat is supposed to represent, anyway.
b. Charging as a whole is broken, due to the availability of things like Pounce. I think the house rules I suggested are a good idea regardless

PS you didn't answer my question about how long you think the duration of flurry of blows is ?

That is because you didn't answer mine.

Your house rules have not been considered because, to be honest, I don't give a flying monkey about your house rules. You have some. Good on ya, mate. I am not interested.

We are debating the actual rules here, not whether you think they are broken or rules that you made up.

You are saying now that you allow double damage for the entire round. That is fine.

Now, who here agrees with him that that is a *reasonable* interpretation of the rules?

I don't.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Flurry of blows is an attack pattern which grants you a certain number of attacks, all of which need to be a variety of unarmed strike, or a variety of monk weapon. Once those attacks are made, the FAQ contends that there is nothing stopping you from further making attacks using TWF or natural attacks.

So do you feel that by this reading, extra attacks from effects like Haste, Rapid Shot, Speed weapons, and off-hand attacks are also not restricted to unarmed strikes and monk weapons? What about iterative attacks from BAB gained from non-Monk sources?

-Hyp.

 

[Cameron]

So do you feel that by this reading, extra attacks from effects like Haste, Rapid Shot, Speed weapons, and off-hand attacks are also not restricted to unarmed strikes and monk weapons? What about iterative attacks from BAB gained from non-Monk sources?

-Hyp.

Flurry is part of your iterative attacks.

Anyway, we have been down this path. You still haven't answered the question: Do you threaten with a whip because you have a sword in the other hand?

 

[SlagMortar]

Flurry is part of your iterative attacks.

Is it correct that your interpretation of the restriction to monk weapons applies only to the +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 attacks?
So is this example correct with your interpretation?
A 20th level hasted monk with TWF, ITWF, GTWF, rapid shot, quickdraw and a bite natural attack can use the following attacks in one full attack. Note, the numbers do not include penalties for rapid shot or TWF:
kama with flurry: +15/+15/+15/+10/+5
hasted attack: +15
off-hand dagger: +15/+10/+5
thrown dagger via rapid shot: +15
bite: +10

If not, which attacks are permitted to be used together?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Flurry is part of your iterative attacks.

Anyway, we have been down this path.

Not with eamon.

He contends that "Flurry of blows is an attack pattern which grants you a certain number of attacks", and implies that anything outside that pattern does not suffer the restrictions.

I'm interested to know what he considers to be in 'the pattern' - is it just the attacks listed in the table in the Monk class, which would not include iterative attacks due to BAB gained from other classes?

You still haven't answered the question: Do you threaten with a whip because you have a sword in the other hand?

I must have missed the question... but no.

-Hyp.

 

[eamon]

He contends that "Flurry of blows is an attack pattern which grants you a certain number of attacks", and implies that anything outside that pattern does not suffer the restrictions.

I'm interested to know what he considers to be in 'the pattern' - is it just the attacks listed in the table in the Monk class, which would not include iterative attacks due to BAB gained from other classes?

You're getting indeed at the weakest point in the FAQ's interpretation, which implies, that the PHB rule "When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons" applies to only the attacks made as part of a flurry. (The penalty is more clearly worded and also applies to other attacks, should those be possible).

If that's the interpretation you use in your game, then the limitation should apply to exactly those attacks you make as part of that flurry. It's not clear what exactly those should be, but at an absolute minimum the bonus attacks you get because of the ability, and indeed all iterative attacks as per the table in the PHB should be part of that.

In practice this means that if you are hasted you may choose to either add another flurry attack or a natural attack or an off-hand weapon. Frankly, it's badly specified, which would suggest they didn't think about it at all beforehand, and as such ruling against it makes sense. However, the rules surrounding extra attacks (such as those granted by natural weapons and TWF) stand on their own and don't interfere with flurry or break game balance. As the rules don't interfere, I interpret flurry and "the rest" in parallel - i.e. you can simultaneously flurry and TWF, and flurry works exactly as specified as if nothing else was going on, and similarly so for TWF. The only impact they have on each other is the penalty the very explicitely apply to all other attacks made in that round.

I see a flurry as an upgrade from "+15/+10/+5". There are other attacks you can get (such as AoO's or Evard's Menacing Tentacles or whatever) outside your normal actions. There are means of adding another series of attacks (such as via TWF or natural weapons). Finally, there are means of adding attacks to your existing batch (such as via haste, flurry and rapidshot).

 

[Hypersmurf]

It's not clear what exactly those should be, but at an absolute minimum the bonus attacks you get because of the ability, and indeed all iterative attacks as per the table in the PHB should be part of that.

Which is why I ask about BAB from other classes.

If I'm a Mnk1/Ftr6, the table in the PHB says "Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus: -2/-2". It describes two attacks. I get three attacks. How many of my three attacks are "When using Flurry of Blows..."? Two, or three?

However, the rules surrounding extra attacks (such as those granted by natural weapons and TWF) stand on their own and don't interfere with flurry or break game balance. As the rules don't interfere, I interpret flurry and "the rest" in parallel - i.e. you can simultaneously flurry and TWF, and flurry works exactly as specified as if nothing else was going on, and similarly so for TWF. The only impact they have on each other is the penalty the very explicitely apply to all other attacks made in that round.

How about the order of attacks - does that cause any problem? If I have a +15, a +10, and a +5 attack (along with some others) which are unquestionably "part of the flurry", and also a +10 bite attack, is there any restriction on when I can bite? Is it permissible to make some attacks which are "part of the flurry", then cease flurrying so that my bite attack does not occur "when using Flurry of Blows", then resume flurrying to make the rest of my attacks?

-Hyp.

 

[Cameron]

Not with eamon.

He contends that "Flurry of blows is an attack pattern which grants you a certain number of attacks", and implies that anything outside that pattern does not suffer the restrictions.

I'm interested to know what he considers to be in 'the pattern' - is it just the attacks listed in the table in the Monk class, which would not include iterative attacks due to BAB gained from other classes?



I must have missed the question... but no.

-Hyp.

Then, you admit that the whip and the sword are two different weapons?

 

[Cameron]

Is it correct that your interpretation of the restriction to monk weapons applies only to the +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 attacks?
So is this example correct with your interpretation?
A 20th level hasted monk with TWF, ITWF, GTWF, rapid shot, quickdraw and a bite natural attack can use the following attacks in one full attack. Note, the numbers do not include penalties for rapid shot or TWF:
kama with flurry: +15/+15/+15/+10/+5
hasted attack: +15
off-hand dagger: +15/+10/+5
thrown dagger via rapid shot: +15
bite: +10

If not, which attacks are permitted to be used together?

As per the FAQ: Flurry + TWF + Haste is OK.

Rapid Shot is not allowed as it only increases your number of *ranged* attacks. So, unless you are Flurrying + TWF with shuriken, Rapid Shot is out of the question with the above routine. And you will still attract a -4 to-hit to all attacks (-2 for TWF, -2 for RS).

 

[Cameron]

Which is why I ask about BAB from other classes.

If I'm a Mnk1/Ftr6, the table in the PHB says "Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus: -2/-2". It describes two attacks. I get three attacks. How many of my three attacks are "When using Flurry of Blows..."? Two, or three?



How about the order of attacks - does that cause any problem? If I have a +15, a +10, and a +5 attack (along with some others) which are unquestionably "part of the flurry", and also a +10 bite attack, is there any restriction on when I can bite? Is it permissible to make some attacks which are "part of the flurry", then cease flurrying so that my bite attack does not occur "when using Flurry of Blows", then resume flurrying to make the rest of my attacks?

-Hyp.

You get three attacks. That is pretty clear when they say you get an *extra* attack at -2 for all. Just because the example uses a low level 1 attack Monk don't mean you can only use Flurry as a level 1 Monk...