Natural attacks and Class attacks confusion

[Hypersmurf]

Read my last sentence in that post. I changed my mind halfway and forgot to delete that line.

Your last sentence still says "your other attacks are ranged", not "at least one of..."... coupled with the line you didn't delete, there's no evidence in the original post to suggest you felt any combination of melee and ranged was legal while using Rapid Shot.

You can't really expect me to respond to the things you meant to say but didn't, and ignore the things you didn't mean to say but did.

-Hyp.

 

[Cameron]

Your last sentence still says "your other attacks are ranged", not "at least one of..."... coupled with the line you didn't delete, there's no evidence in the original post to suggest you felt any combination of melee and ranged was legal while using Rapid Shot.

You can't really expect me to respond to the things you meant to say but didn't, and ignore the things you didn't mean to say but did.

-Hyp.

No, I don't. However, now that you do know, how about you answer it?

 

[Hypersmurf]

No, I don't. However, now that you do know, how about you answer it?

I thoguht I already did - I personally don't read "an extra attack in a round with a ranged weapon" to require a previous attack in a round with a ranged weapon.

Or, to put it another way, I read it as an extra [attack in a round] (with a ranged weapon), rather than an extra [attack with a ranged weapon] (in a round) - if anything's required to already exist, it's an attack in the round, not an attack with a ranged weapon. The ranged weapon limitation is specific to this attack, not to the attacks it's extra to.

And in any case, I'd require it to be with a special monk weapon - sai or shuriken - if the attack is made when using Flurry of Blows.

-Hyp.

 

[Cameron]

I thoguht I already did - I personally don't read "an extra attack in a round with a ranged weapon" to require a previous attack in a round with a ranged weapon.

Or, to put it another way, I read it as an extra [attack in a round] (with a ranged weapon), rather than an extra [attack with a ranged weapon] (in a round) - if anything's required to already exist, it's an attack in the round, not an attack with a ranged weapon. The ranged weapon limitation is specific to this attack, not to the attacks it's extra to.

And in any case, I'd require it to be with a special monk weapon - sai or shuriken - if the attack is made when using Flurry of Blows.

-Hyp.

OK. Cool. Now. About the whip and the sword...

 

[Hypersmurf]

OK. Cool. Now. About the whip and the sword...

The whip and the sword are certainly two different weapons. I don't think I've ever suggested otherwise.

-Hyp.

 

[eamon]

Which is why I ask about BAB from other classes.
If I'm a Mnk1/Ftr6, the table in the PHB says "Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus: -2/-2". It describes two attacks. I get three attacks. How many of my three attacks are "When using Flurry of Blows..."? Two, or three?

All three. Flurry includes all iterative attacks.

How about the order of attacks - does that cause any problem? If I have a +15, a +10, and a +5 attack (along with some others) which are unquestionably "part of the flurry", and also a +10 bite attack, is there any restriction on when I can bite? Is it permissible to make some attacks which are "part of the flurry", then cease flurrying so that my bite attack does not occur "when using Flurry of Blows", then resume flurrying to make the rest of my attacks?

If it's possible in a full attack [to split your attack order as you describe], then it's possible in a flurry. I see no reason it should not be possible. The only limitation on attack order I'm aware of is that iterative attacks must be made in order of decreasing attack bonus (note that this limitation only explicitly applies to one set of iterative attacks, not the second).

 

[eamon]

Hopefully without derailing the thread too much, I'm pretty sure you can add a rapid shot onto a full attack sequence without making any other ranged attacks.

Although in a literal sense, I agree with you, I don't think your conclusion is valid. Literally, you can easily read rapid shot to mean that it adds one ranged attack. However, given the flavor and name of rapid shot, I'd say this is unreasonable. To have time "left" for that extra attack you need to be doing something faster than normal - that "something" being shooting - rapidly . If it were up to my interpretation I'd say all attacks must be ranged attacks. However, the FAQ interpretation that at least two (an "original" and the "extra") attacks must be ranged is just as valid, and for consistency, that's what I'll do. Futhermore, it increases character options, which is a good thing.

 

[eamon]

He's talking about making an extra ranged attack - with a dagger. It's an extra attack, like the extra attack from ITWF or the extra attack from Haste - if the Haste attack can be with a dagger, why can't the Rapid Shot ranged attack be with a dagger?

If the Haste attack can't be with a dagger, then I agree that the Rapid Shot attack would be limited to a thrown shuriken or sai (since you can't throw a weapon without a range increment as part of a full attack action). And that's how I'd rule it, since when using Flurry of Blows, you may only attack with unarmed strike or special monk weapons.

Ignoring Flurry altogether, there's no reason someone with a spear and the Rapid Shot feat can't make a melee attack with the spear, and then throw it as the extra ranged attack granted by the feat.

Exactly.

Somewhere in the huge thread above somebody is also implying that you can add an extra haste attack, similar to how you add an extra TWF attack. This is not the case; haste is more like flurry and rapid shot than TWF or natural attacks. You can make an extra attack with a weapon you are holding, meaning, you can add one attack of a type that you are already capable of making. Either you add an extra attack in your main-hand/flurry iterative attacks, or an extra attack to your off-hand attacks, or to a natural weapon. You don't get some entirely different attack. So, to get an extra dagger attack with haste, either you're wielding it in your primary hand (and thus not using flurry of blows), or in your off hand (and then you need TWF to use it productively given the penalties otherwise).

 

[Hypersmurf]

Somewhere in the huge thread above somebody is also implying that you can add an extra haste attack, similar to how you add an extra TWF attack. This is not the case; haste is more like flurry and rapid shot than TWF or natural attacks. You can make an extra attack with a weapon you are holding, meaning, you can add one attack of a type that you are already capable of making.

I'm having real difficulty understanding how one type of 'extra attack' is 'when using Flurry of Blows', and another type of 'extra attack' isn't.

I'm holding a dagger. It's a weapon I'm holding, so Haste will allow me to make an extra attack with it.

If I flurry, you'd let me use the dagger as an extra off-hand attack, because the extra off-hand attack isn't 'when using Flurry of Blows', but you wouldn't let me use it as a Haste attack, because the extra attack from Haste is 'when using Flurry of Blows'?

-Hyp.

 

[eamon]

OK, so I think basically possible interpretations are "the FAQ's crazy, when you flurry, you ONLY flurry", "The FAQ is basically OK, but what's that about rapid shot?" and "The FAQ is fine."

Here's another question, assuming you accept the basic contention of that FAQ that additional attacks from TWF are permissible, can you flurry on your off-hand? why not?