Natural attacks and Class attacks confusion

[SlagMortar]

I agree that that position is a possible interpretation of what attacks are part of a flurry of blows. I think Hyp's interpretation is also a possible interpretation. I don't think there is definitive proof of what attacks are part of a flurry and what attacks are not.

Hopefully without derailing the thread too much, I'm pretty sure you can add a rapid shot onto a full attack sequence without making any other ranged attacks.

You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a -2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.

Notice it says one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon, but doesn't say anywhere you have to attack another time with a ranged weapon. The full attack action does not specify that all attacks must be melee or ranged so I see no reason you can throw a rapid shot onto a melee full attack as long as you take the penalties.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Rapid Shot is not allowed as it only increases your number of *ranged* attacks. So, unless you are Flurrying + TWF with shuriken, Rapid Shot is out of the question with the above routine. And you will still attract a -4 to-hit to all attacks (-2 for TWF, -2 for RS).

He's talking about making an extra ranged attack - with a dagger. It's an extra attack, like the extra attack from ITWF or the extra attack from Haste - if the Haste attack can be with a dagger, why can't the Rapid Shot ranged attack be with a dagger?

If the Haste attack can't be with a dagger, then I agree that the Rapid Shot attack would be limited to a thrown shuriken or sai (since you can't throw a weapon without a range increment as part of a full attack action). And that's how I'd rule it, since when using Flurry of Blows, you may only attack with unarmed strike or special monk weapons.

Ignoring Flurry altogether, there's no reason someone with a spear and the Rapid Shot feat can't make a melee attack with the spear, and then throw it as the extra ranged attack granted by the feat.

-Hyp.

 

[Cameron]

He's talking about making an extra ranged attack - with a dagger. It's an extra attack, like the extra attack from ITWF or the extra attack from Haste - if the Haste attack can be with a dagger, why can't the Rapid Shot ranged attack be with a dagger?

If the Haste attack can't be with a dagger, then I agree that the Rapid Shot attack would be limited to a thrown shuriken or sai (since you can't throw a weapon without a range increment as part of a full attack action). And that's how I'd rule it, since when using Flurry of Blows, you may only attack with unarmed strike or special monk weapons.

Ignoring Flurry altogether, there's no reason someone with a spear and the Rapid Shot feat can't make a melee attack with the spear, and then throw it as the extra ranged attack granted by the feat.

-Hyp.

The other attacks have to be ranged as well for RS to work. At no point can you melee and ranged at the same time with Rapid Shot. That is where it falls over. I think your spear example is wrong.

The operative words here are "*extra ranged* attack" which implies that your other attacks are ranged as well.

 

[Cameron]

I agree that that position is a possible interpretation of what attacks are part of a flurry of blows. I think Hyp's interpretation is also a possible interpretation. I don't think there is definitive proof of what attacks are part of a flurry and what attacks are not.

Hopefully without derailing the thread too much, I'm pretty sure you can add a rapid shot onto a full attack sequence without making any other ranged attacks.

Notice it says one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon, but doesn't say anywhere you have to attack another time with a ranged weapon. The full attack action does not specify that all attacks must be melee or ranged so I see no reason you can throw a rapid shot onto a melee full attack as long as you take the penalties.

You would be right about Hyp except that the FAQ spelt out exactly what the authours meant, which overrides Hyp's interpretation totally.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The other attacks have to be ranged as well for RS to work. At no point can you melee and ranged at the same time with Rapid Shot. That is where it falls over. I think your spear example is wrong.

The operative words here are "*extra ranged* attack" which implies that your other attacks are ranged as well.

"You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon."

Do I have a ranged weapon? Then I can make one extra attack per round with it.

What is extra? An attack per round. What limitations are there upon this attack? It must be with a ranged weapon.

Even if you rule that there must already be an attack with a ranged weapon in order for there to be an extra attack with a ranged weapon, this would still only necessitate one other ranged attack... not all of them. (The FAQ you put so much stock in seems to take this approach, since it says the monk can use Rapid Shot to throw an extra shuriken if at least one - not all - of his other attacks is throwing a shuriken.)

-Hyp.

 

[Cameron]

"You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon."

Do I have a ranged weapon? Then I can make one extra attack per round with it.

What is extra? An attack per round. What limitations are there upon this attack? It must be with a ranged weapon.

Even if you rule that there must already be an attack with a ranged weapon in order for there to be an extra attack with a ranged weapon, this would still only necessitate one other ranged attack... not all of them. (The FAQ you put so much stock in seems to take this approach, since it says the monk can use Rapid Shot to throw an extra shuriken if at least one - not all - of his other attacks is throwing a shuriken.)

-Hyp.

Precisely. His attacks were all melee except that one shot.

Let me put it this way, Hyp. I know it is bad on your ego and all, but I do place more stock in the FAQ than your interpretation of the rules. How much stock is up for debate. Do I actually think it is the start and end of DnD 3.5? Heck no. Do I think it has a greater validity and legitimacy than your interpretation of the rules? You betcha.

So, none of that bitterness ("The FAQ you put so much stock in...") here just because I am not taking your word as the word of God, please. Lead by example. Don't indulge in snide martyr-ism.

 

[Diirk]

You are saying now that you allow double damage for the entire round. That is fine.

Now, who here agrees with him that that is a *reasonable* interpretation of the rules?

I don't.

Well thats fine, I don't think your interpretation of "I can't make natural attacks as part of a flurry, but its ok because I can flurry and make seperate natural attacks" is reasonable at all either. I also think you're becoming increasingly insulting towards people and need to calm down a little.

 

[Cameron]

Well thats fine, I don't think your interpretation of "I can't make natural attacks as part of a flurry, but its ok because I can flurry and make seperate natural attacks" is reasonable at all either. I also think you're becoming increasingly insulting towards people and need to calm down a little.

You are, of course, welcomed to your opinions. Just don't expect me to fall on my knees and go "Oh, my Lawsy!" every time you open your mouth

 

[Hypersmurf]

Precisely. His attacks were all melee except that one shot.

He specified the Quick Draw feat, and there's no indication as to whether his three off-hand dagger attacks were melee or ranged.

And there's a lot of difference between "You must make at least one ranged attack before you can use Rapid Shot", and "At no point can you melee and ranged at the same time with Rapid Shot".

-Hyp.

 

[Cameron]

He specified the Quick Draw feat, and there's no indication as to whether his three off-hand dagger attacks were melee or ranged.

And there's a lot of difference between "You must make at least one ranged attack before you can use Rapid Shot", and "At no point can you melee and ranged at the same time with Rapid Shot".

-Hyp.

Read my last sentence in that post. I changed my mind halfway and forgot to delete that line.