Natural attacks and Class attacks confusion

[Hypersmurf]

That's the point I was trying to make: The Monk (and specifically only the Monk) still has his hands/claws free after his full unarmed strike routine. Remember that he can do his full routine including flurry with his arms full by using knees, elbows, etc.

A Ftr-16 could make four iterative unarmed strikes (+16/+11/+6/+1) with his hands full, by kicking or head butting.

As for whether the dragon monk can combine natural weapons with a Flurry, the FAQ says yes and Rules of the Game says no.

I'm in agreement with Rules of the Game - a natural weapon is neither an unarmed strike nor a special monk weapon, and that's all you can attack with when using flurry of blows.

-Hyp.

 

[Cameron]

A Ftr-16 could make four iterative unarmed strikes (+16/+11/+6/+1) with his hands full, by kicking or head butting.

As for whether the dragon monk can combine natural weapons with a Flurry, the FAQ says yes and Rules of the Game says no.

I'm in agreement with Rules of the Game - a natural weapon is neither an unarmed strike nor a special monk weapon, and that's all you can attack with when using flurry of blows.

-Hyp.

He can't, but he can add the natural attack as a secondary natural attack after his Flurry.

 

[Hypersmurf]

He can't, but he can add the natural attack as a secondary natural attack after his Flurry.

Rules of the Game says no... and as far as I'm concerned, the monk is using Flurry of Blows during that full attack action, so during that full attack action, he can only attack with unarmed strikes or special monk weapons.

Let's say we have a Hasted Mnk-1/Ftr-11 with Rapid Shot, holding a dagger.

His BAB of +11 grants him three attacks... two of which he only gets because of non-Monk levels.

Haste grants him one more.

Rapid Shot grants him a ranged attack.

Flurry of Blows grants him one extra attack.

Which of these six attacks are 'part of the flurry'? Can he make two of his iterative attacks with his dagger, since they derive from a non-Monk source? Can he make his Haste attack with his dagger, since it's unrelated to his Flurry? Can he throw his dagger with Rapid Shot?

-Hyp.

 

[Cameron]

Rules of the Game says no... and as far as I'm concerned, the monk is using Flurry of Blows during that full attack action, so during that full attack action, he can only attack with unarmed strikes or special monk weapons.

Let's say we have a Hasted Mnk-1/Ftr-11 with Rapid Shot, holding a dagger.

His BAB of +11 grants him three attacks... two of which he only gets because of non-Monk levels.

Haste grants him one more.

Rapid Shot grants him a ranged attack.

Flurry of Blows grants him one extra attack.

Which of these six attacks are 'part of the flurry'? Can he make two of his iterative attacks with his dagger, since they derive from a non-Monk source? Can he make his Haste attack with his dagger, since it's unrelated to his Flurry? Can he throw his dagger with Rapid Shot?

-Hyp.

OK. Let's take this from the top. This is my opinion on the whole thing (so it ain't gospel):

If he uses his dagger at all as part of his attack routine, he cannot use Flurry (it isn't a Monk weapon). So, he gets his three attacks at +11/+6/+1

If he uses his unarmed strikes but not the dagger, he can Flurry for 4 attacks: +9/+9/+4/-1

He can throw the dagger, and if he has more daggers *and* the Quickdraw feat, he can throw even more at: +9/+9/+4/-1 due to his Rapid Shot (+1 to all if within 30ft due to Point Blank Shot, as the target is most likely to be; it is a dagger, after all)

Haste, of course, adds another +1 to all his rolls and allows him to make one extra attack on top of the ones listed above at his highest BAB.

Iterative attacks from BAB is independent of the source of the BAB (it can be from multiple classes). Flurry is independent of BAB. How much you get out of it depends on Monk levels (you can't Greater Flurry just because you have a BAB of +6, for example; you need to be Monk 9 or was it 11?) Thus, whether the BAB comes from Monk levels or Fighter levels does not matter as to how many attacks he make when he Flurry. Even in the old 3.0 Flurry rules, where the number of special Monk unarmed strike attacks you make is dependent on BAB, where you get the BAB is irrelevent (you could get up to 8 primary attacks when you Flurry if you can get a 19 BAB and a level of Monk, for example).

However, *natural attacks* is something else altogether. You can use them always as part of a full attack. Take a look at the Horned Devil in the MM, for instance. You take a -5 penalty on all natural attacks if you are using them as secondary natural attacks in addition to your normal full attack action, and you only get half Strength bonus on them. You can't use a natural attack if that limb is occupied when making your normal full attack (e.g., you can't claw with that hand if you just whacked someone with a sword its holding, but you can claw with your other hand if you don't have a shield in that hand or have whacked someone with an off-hand weapon in that hand). That is the only rule in adding natural attacks to your full attack routine.

The Monk gets away with this because of that clause in the Monk Unarmed Strike entry that specifically states that a Monk can hit with a "non-limb", if you will. That frees up *all* your natural attacks to add to the full attack routine regardless of where that natural attack is. That is what make Monks with a lot of natural attacks so dangerous, and that is *before* you add in things like Rapid Strike and Improved Rapid Strike...

 

[Hypersmurf]

However, *natural attacks* is something else altogether. You can use them always as part of a full attack.

Except that they're neither unarmed strikes nor special monk weapons, so they're forbidden in conjunction with a Flurry in the same way that a Hasted attack with the dagger is.

Either "as part of a Flurry of Blows" only restricts certain attacks in your full attack action, or it restricts all attacks in your full attack action. If the natural weapon attacks are part of your full attack action but not part of your Flurry of Blows, then some of the attacks with the dagger - part of your full attack action - can also not be part of your Flurry of Blows. The hasted attack, for example - if it's "part of a Flurry of Blows", then so are any natural weapon attacks... and thus they carry the same restriction, that as aprt of a Flurry of Blows, you may only attack with unarmed strikes or special monk weapons.

Take a look at the Horned Devil in the MM, for instance.

He's not using Flurry of Blows, so none of his attacks - natural or otherwise - are part of a Flurry of Blows. No problem.

That is what make Monks with a lot of natural attacks so dangerous...

But how many creatures are there that have natural attacks using all their limbs and their head in the same full attack action? There aren't many. And even for those, the non-Monk is only giving up a single natural attack. For most creatures, even if they're making two claws and a bite, they can still kick without sacrificing a natural weapon. For those odd exceptions who already make natural attacks with every limb, you're giving up a whole one claw for all your unarmed strikes.

-Hyp.

 

[Cameron]

Except that they're neither unarmed strikes nor special monk weapons, so they're forbidden in conjunction with a Flurry in the same way that a Hasted attack with the dagger is.
-Hyp.

A Hasted attack with a dagger is not the same as a secondary natural attack. The Hasted attack is part of your normal full attack routine. The secondary natural attack isn't part of a *normal* full attack routine, but an additional set of attacks after it. That's what the rules say, unfortunately.

 

[Hypersmurf]

A Hasted attack with a dagger is not the same as a secondary natural attack. The Hasted attack is part of your normal full attack routine. The secondary natural attack isn't part of a *normal* full attack routine, but an additional set of attacks after it. That's what the rules say, unfortunately.

Where?

"Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks."

You combine your natural and manufactured weapon attacks in your full attack.

Bite, Claw, Claw - the bite is primary, and the claws are secondary.

Sword, bite, claw - the sword is primary, and the bite and claw are secondary. But it's not two separate attack routines.

-Hyp.

 

[Cameron]

Where?

"Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks."

You combine your natural and manufactured weapon attacks in your full attack.

Bite, Claw, Claw - the bite is primary, and the claws are secondary.

Sword, bite, claw - the sword is primary, and the bite and claw are secondary. But it's not two separate attack routines.

-Hyp.

Can a TWF fighter tack on secondary natural attacks on top of his secondary off-hand attacks?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Can a TWF fighter tack on secondary natural attacks on top of his secondary off-hand attacks?

Certainly. As part of the same full attack action - the same 'attack routine', if you like.

They're not 'tacked on', they're simply among the attacks he can make during that full attack action.

-Hyp.

 

[Cameron]

Certainly. As part of the same full attack action - the same 'attack routine', if you like.

They're not 'tacked on', they're simply among the attacks he can make during that full attack action.

-Hyp.

That is not how I read it, and that is not how the FAQ reads it either.

I think you are making a grevious error here: The thing is that a manufactured weapon (your dagger) isn't considered a *natural* attack, and thus cannot be included in a Full Attack action. A natural attack can be. That is why you cannot Flurry and then tack on an extra dagger attack. That is like saying you take a full attack with your spiked chain, and then you Quickdraw a dagger and stab the guy as well.

I don't think you are saying that is the case, are you?