Natural attacks. How, exactly, do they work?

[Infiniti2000]

What is a set of natural weapons if not more than one natural weapon? There is no text in that statement that *requires* that the natural attacks be of similar make, model, or design. (In other words, it does not say a "set of identical weapons" like 9 tentacles, or what have you.)

That's the definition of 'pair' or 'set', though. You don't have a pair of bite/slam, you have a pair of bites or a pair of slams. I understand your point that it could be construed ambiguously (you read it one way, Thanee another), but I'm on Thanee's side. I don't think 'pair' and 'set' is that vague. For one thing, the number of monsters out there with a pair (or more) of primary attacks that are dissimilar is likely zero.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

You don't have a pair of bite/slam, you have a pair of bites or a pair of slams.

... or a set of knives: one butcher's cleaver, one apple corer, one bread knife, and one steak knife.

... or a set of vehicles: one car, one truck, one locomotive engine, and one scooter.

A pair is generally restrictive to two similar items (though it need not be; a pair of birds can as easily be two robins as a robin and a bluefinch), but a set most certainly is not.

 

[Infiniti2000]

So, is there any creature with a set of primary weapons that are dissimilar? I.e. can you provide evidence that your interpretation is possible? I realize that even if not, that doesn't prove my point, but sometimes in vague situations like this, a preponderence of the evidence will be sufficient.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So, is there any creature with a set of primary weapons that are dissimilar?

The Aranea:

Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+3
Attack: Bite +5 melee (1d6 plus poison) or web +5 ranged
Feats: Improved Initiative, Iron WillB, Weapon Finesse

The Avoral:

Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+9
Attack: Claw +13 melee (2d6+2) or wing +13 melee (2d8+2)

Is that enough?

EDIT:

Also, the Chimera:

Attack: Bite +12 melee (2d6+4)
Full Attack: Bite +12 melee (2d6+4) and bite +12 melee (1d8+4) and gore +12 melee (1d8+4) and 2 claws +10 melee (1d6+2)

Notice the attack bonuses for each head.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Aranea: Nope, web is a special ability not a natural weapon.

I could argue the avoral (two separate pairs and not both at the same time) and chimera (three head attacks are not dissimilar IMO). The other odd thing about chimeras is apparently they cannot gore or claw as a single attack, and which head is it that can bite? I think most people assume the dragon head does the more damage, but I don't think it's written (at least not in the SRD).

Okay, now I seem to be just argumentative. I'm not trying to be, though, honest.

 

[ARandomGod]

So, is there any creature with a set of primary weapons that are dissimilar? I.e. can you provide evidence that your interpretation is possible? I realize that even if not, that doesn't prove my point, but sometimes in vague situations like this, a preponderence of the evidence will be sufficient.

You mean, of course, other than a warforged (primary natural slam attack) who's taken a couple of levels of Dragon Disciple (granting a primary natural bite attack)?

^_^

A set of natural attacks could very well be from dissimiliar sources, whereas the context of a 'pair' indicates similiar sources.

Fortunatly for me, I'm not terribly worried about the possible different interpretations of the rule, so much as what the rule IS in the first place. In this case I'm going to go with the personal thought of allowing bite and slam to both be primary attacks.

Besides, doing that has interesting effects. Namely having two primary natural attacks would make someone less likely to want to combine natural attacks with BAB attacks, since doing so demotes the natural attacks to secondary attacks. It also makes taking the multiattack feat more attractive (so that all secondary attacks are at -2 instead of -5).

I'm especially pleased to have had pointed out to me the natural attack 1.5 strength OR 1.0 str primary 0.5str secondary ruling. More options to think about.

Patryns edit of the chimera I find interesting. There's both a pair (of heads) and a set (including the gore) of primary natural attacks

 

[ARandomGod]

Qoute snipped:
... and chimera (three head attacks are not dissimilar IMO). ...

Ah. How about Slam (headbut) Bite (bite) as a non-dissimiliar two attacks with the head?

 

[IndyPendant]

Errr...Patryn? The Aranea and Avoral both have to choose which special attack to use, even in a Full Attack. And the Chimera is basically 3 creatures in one--so it's attacking with three heads, each head really attacking separately. Your examples are misleading too, in that your quotes list only 'attack' rather than 'full attack' for the first two. If you look at the entries, the Aranea must choose between poison or web even in a full attack, as must the Avoral choose between claws and wings. And the Chimera, in a full attack, uses three head attacks--which really are very similar attacks if you consider the sources--with two claw attacks as secondary.

In fact, sets (when dealing with communication, anyways) rarely refer to less than 3 items. "Pair or set" just refers to more than one natural weapon of a similar type, imo. I may be wrong--the phrase is certainly open to interpretation! But your examples are far from conclusive.

Edit: clarity.: )

 

[Infiniti2000]

You mean, of course, other than a warforged (primary natural slam attack) who's taken a couple of levels of Dragon Disciple (granting a primary natural bite attack)?

Well, you certainly can't use the subject of debate as proof of anything. We're arguing whether the warforged gets two primary attacks (at the same time), and saying he does get it and then using that statement as proof is merely self-fulfilling.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Aranea: Nope, web is a special ability not a natural weapon.

Alright, I'll give you that one.

I could argue the avoral (two separate pairs and not both at the same time)

Ah, but that wasn't the question, was it?

and chimera (three head attacks are not dissimilar IMO)

On the contrary! One is a gore attack which, unlike the others, does only piercing damage.

They also all have different damage dice, but the same strength bonus.

The other odd thing about chimeras is apparently they cannot gore or claw as a single attack, and which head is it that can bite?

Of course they can - but the bite from their attack line is superior to the other bite attacks (more damage, more damage types).

And, as for clawing as a single attack, check the rules again on Secondary Natural Weapons.

The point remains that the chimera has three distinct primary natural weapons (as differentiated by damage and damage type) and only one can be used in a normal attack, though all three may be used in a Full Attack.

Okay, now I seem to be just argumentative. I'm not trying to be, though, honest.

Yeah, ya do.