Natural attacks. How, exactly, do they work?

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Errr...Patryn? The Aranea and Avoral both have to choose which special attack to use, even in a Full Attack.

And that matters because ... ?

The question was, "Is there a creature that has more than one natural attack defined as primary?"

I gave two solid examples.

Ergo, yes, there are creatures that have more than one natural attack defined as primary.

And the Chimera is basically 3 creatures in one--so it's attacking with three heads, each head really attacking separately.

And each a primary natural weapon.

 

[ARandomGod]

Well, you certainly can't use the subject of debate as proof of anything. We're arguing whether the warforged gets two primary attacks (at the same time), and saying he does get it and then using that statement as proof is merely self-fulfilling.

You CAN... you just won't be very convincing.

Of course, I posted that one very tounge in cheek. Not really meant to be held out as proof, just me meaning to be impish. My natural response, I suppose. If you can't add anything meaningful, insert an amuzing comment instead that shows you're paying attention.

 

[IndyPendant]

Heh. Well then, let me give you my interpretation of the question, from the context--and the example I would need to see, to concede that that is the interpretation intended for RAW. I actually really do want to see if there is such a creature, too! : )

"Is there a creature which, when using the full-attack option, has two (or more) completely different types of natural attacks from a source that could not reasonably be considered part of a single set, both of which can be used in the same full attack, and both of which are treated as primary weapons?"

Edit: An attempt to close the Chimera loophole, which I anticipate being the response to my question, and which I have argued against already! : )

 

[IcyCool]

The question was, "Is there a creature that has more than one natural attack defined as primary?"

I believe the question was intended to ask:

"Is there a creature that has more than one natural attack defined as primary in a full attack?" As that is what was being discussed above.

My guess would be that the only ones you'll find that do have multiple primary natural attacks in a full attack (that aren't from the same thing, i.e. 2 claws), will also have multiple heads.

For example:
Chimera
Hydra
Ettin?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

"Is there a creature which, when using the full-attack option, has two (or more) completely different types of natural attacks, both of which can be used in the same full attack, and both of which are treated as primary weapons?"

Well, there's the chimera, already posted.

Then there's the marilith, who has its tail defined as a primary natural weapon here:

Attack: Longsword +25 melee (2d6+9/19–20) or slam +24 melee (1d8+9) or tail slap +24 melee (4d6+9)

Note that, in its full-attack line, it treats it as a secondary natural weapon, which makes it a typo (because it's either always a secondary natural weapon or it isn't until it's mixed with manufactured weapons). I believe the second case is a cut-and-paste error from the first full-attack option (where the tail is mixed with the 6 longswords, and thus would be secondary).

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

"Is there a creature that has more than one natural attack defined as primary in a full attack?" As that is what was being discussed above.

And, again, I point you to:

Attack: Bite +12 melee (2d6+4)
Full Attack: Bite +12 melee (2d6+4) and bite +12 melee (1d8+4) and gore +12 melee (1d8+4) and 2 claws +10 melee (1d6+2)

Check the bonuses, both to-hit and strength bonus to damage. The bite, the bite, and the gore are treated as primary. The claws are secondary, in this full-attack action.

EDIT:

The horned devil also has both claws and tails treated as primary in its Attack block.

 

[IndyPendant]

Bah. You beat me to it, Patryn. : )

And the Marilith's source for each type of primary attack and secondary attack are all grouped by similarity. (Longsword, tailslap, slams, tailslap.) I agree that there is likely a typo there, but you still haven't found a clear case. Let me provide an example.

A clear case would be something that treats a claw *and* a bite *in the same full-round attack* both as primary weapons. (Or a bite and a tail-slap. Or a claw and a lover's kiss. Whatever. : )

I see nothing in the SRD that shows this. The chimera you keep quoting still attacks with three heads.

 

[Thanee]

What is a set of natural weapons if not more than one natural weapon?

The hydra's heads, for example. At least, that's how I think it is meant.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I see nothing in the SRD that shows this. The chimera you keep quoting still attacks with three heads.

And many things attack with two arms - or 20!

There's also:

Attack: Slam +12 melee (1d6+7) or tongue +12 melee touch (paralysis)
Full Attack: Slam +12 melee (1d6+7) and tongue +12 melee touch (paralysis)

EDIT:

And, there's further oddness with the Wyvern, who has all his attacks as primary, until he full attacks:

Attack: Sting +10 melee (1d6+4 plus poison) or talon +10 melee (2d6+4) or bite +10 melee (2d8+4)
Full Attack: Sting +10 melee (1d6+4 plus poison) and bite +8 melee (2d8+4) and 2 wings +8 melee (1d8+2) and 2 talons +8 melee (2d6+4)

Then, he gets the -2 penalty for attacking with the Multiattack feat, but keeps his full Strength bonus with his sting, bite, and talons.

This, of course, isn't actually an option according to the rules.

The primary weapon is given in the creature’s Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature’s Full Attack entry. A creature’s primary natural weapon is its most effective natural attack, usually by virtue of the creature’s physiology, training, or innate talent with the weapon. An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus. Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a –5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a –2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity.

 

[dcollins]

Or do you pick one primary attack as primary, making it:
bite/slam/claw/claw at 6/1/1/1?

Now what about normal BAB? Would holding a sword in one hand remove one claw attack, but add two BAB attacks...

The above are correct. There's only ever one type of primary natural attack. Holding a weapon takes away that member's natural attack, and allows attacks by BAB (see Lizardfolk or Yuan-Ti in the MM).