D&D General Nature Clerics vs. Druids?

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Paladins are just as tied to Charlemagne and the court of the 8th century Carolingian Empire, but we've accepted that they've become a genericized archetype of a holy warrior over time.
Fair enough - by the same rationale they should probably be renamed at some point. Holy Knight?
The D&D version of Wizard is firmly borrowed from Vance's Dying Earth novels, but we have accepted it as a generic archetype of arcane spellcasters in general and used it for things far removed from the works of Vance.
First off, they're still Magic-Users to me; which is about as generic a term as you could ask for. But even Wizard was around as a term long before Vance did anything with it, and though the game's mechanics may be based on Vance the term Wizard is not.
The D&D Cleric is based firmly on Western European warrior-priests from roughly the 8th century to the 14th century, specifically Archbishop Turpin from The Song of Roland through the Knights Hospitaller of the Crusades. . .but we use it as a generic priest class for all divine spellcasters.
Again, though, much more generic. (I always see Friar Tuck as the archetypal adventuring Cleric) In 0e-1e days the class carried a much more Christian-based feel to it than it does now, but that's pretty easy to either overlook or strip out if it's not wanted.
If we can accept that those classes may have had very specific roots, but became more generic archetypes over time, why not the Druid?
Because the Druid never really became a more generic archetype.
 

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Chaosmancer

Legend
As an entirely separate note from the above:
4e roles and power sources were never straightjackets. Ever. Having a role in 4e just means, "This is what you're automatically good at." To lack a role would mean you were good at nothing inherently, and had to claw your way into being good at something, which...I sincerely hope I don't have to say why that would be bad. Even from PHB1, it was always possible to mix roles, and to take powers, feats, PPs, etc. that made you good at things outside your role. Some classes were hard to shape into certain roles, but it was rarely impossible to do--e.g., Paladins don't have a lot of Control effects, but multiclassing with a controller class and picking your powers wisely would let you grow in that direction, as could taking a useful PP.

Likewise, power sources weren't a straightjacket. They simply said what you definitely could draw on for power. Being a Wizard with Divine powers could be as easy as playing a half-elf, or multiclassing Cleric, or whatever. Choosing to mix your power sources was perfectly valid--some options even required it. And, as others have noted, this was perfectly supported by 4e Dark Sun, where the Divine power source doesn't exist, and the old 2e "elemental clerics" were an obvious, kludgy patch.

It is so infuriating to hear people still repeat--even a decade on--how "stifling" etc. 4e's roles and power sources were. They straight-up, flat-out were not. They gave you a floor to stand on, not a ceiling to hold you down. I will never understand why telling some people, "You're good at taking hits and holding an enemy's attention!" translates for them into "You are NEVER allowed to do ANYTHING but take hits and hold enemy attention! HOW DARE YOU EVEN ASK!!!!!" Nothing--not one thing--in roles or power sources says what you CANNOT do.


People made the accusations long before the Seeker existed, though, so I'm not sure how much it applies. I do totally agree that it fell really flat though! The Seeker, and the Binder Warlock, were both...reasonable ideas that manifested poorly.

It doesn't help, of course, that the Seeker was part of WotC's attempt to salvage the kinda-sorta terribly racist Ki power source, as was the Runepriest (originally a Ki Leader--it used ofuda rather than runes, more or less). I don't think we ever saw...whatever thing they intended as a Ki Defender. AKA, I kinda feel like the Seeker was doomed to fail regardless.

Also, the irony with the Seeker (and the Runepriest and Binder!) is that they weren't even grid-filling! Because those boxes on the grid already had something in them. Druid was already a (the?) Primal Controller, Cleric was the Divine Leader, Wizard was the Arcane Controller. They weren't empty checkboxes getting a perfunctory submission to ensure every box was checked. They were, instead, trying to over-load existing boxes with more things. And I totally agree that trying to wedge multiple classes into the same niche is difficult and not likely to work very well. If that were what was typically meant by "grid-filling," I'd have no problem with the term.

On Elemental vs Primal: yeah, Elemental was a bit like Shadow (except that Shadow did have one class to its name, the Assassin). That is, you had things like the Elementalist Sorcerer or the like, but no Elemental classes. The Primal Spirits were, more or less, the "emergent" magic of the material world itself, an unexpected bonus from the efforts that the Primordials (= Elemental power) and Deities (= Divine power) put into making it. Primal magic isn't so much "elemental" per se as it is animistic and holistic: it's not that you tap into the raw power of pure fire, but rather that you call upon the spirit of the First Flame for her guidance or power; it's not that you bring a rock-berg in from the Elemental Chaos, but that you channel Grandfather Mountain to weigh down on your foes as though he himself had fallen upon them. (The former is a Shaman's way of looking at it, while the latter is closer to a Warden's.)


1000% agree with all of this. (And I had forgotten the Druid was a controller)

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A Druid can be a Trickster. Loki turned into a Salmon, and a Mare.
Charm Person is a Druid spell.

Playing a Druid shouldn't mean you are forced into some Role Playing Straight Jacket.

Druids make a very scary Secret Police force. Hidden Informants, literally crawling underfoot, and you can't trust that any person, or creature is what they seem.

Nature Clerics do not get Polymorph.

While true... it kind of is an odd way of looking at things.

Sort of like saying that Bard's make good farmers. I can show the mechanics for that, but it is certainly not the typical take on the class and the themes within.

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I was talking about dual wielding rules.

A 5E subclass tends to use a page or so. 4E was 10-15 pages.

Designing to level 30 also bad design since only 1% make it to 20. Mostly just wasted space.

You really aren't doing yourself favors man.

Here are the full rules for Dual-Wielding in 4e, with no subclasses included:

"D&D 4e uses attack powers. Follow the instructions on the power to make the attack - in most cases, you only get one attack.

When wielding more than one weapon, you can choose any wielded weapon for that attack. The only restriction is that the secondary weapons must have the off-hand property if you want to use them.

Only powers that make multiple attacks get to make attacks with the secondary weapons. These include Ranger's Twin Strike, Warden's Wildblood Frenzy, etc."

That is no where close to 10 pages. And those are the rules for dual-wielding. You only get more when you start adding feats, classes, and specific powers.


Also, if you hold designing for levels 20 thru 30 against 4e, do you also hold it against 2e and 3.X who had entire books dedicated to the idea? The 3.0 Epic Handbook, which is an entire book dedicated to the idea of going beyond level 20.

Or is it only a waste of space when you bake it into the core game instead of charging another... $50 for it?



Except to not suck you have to design powers to go along with it.

PHB Ranger OP and they had to design a heap of powers to make the fight competitive.

So now it isn't just that the rules have to be short, but now they have to meet your standards of impact as well...

Glad 5e fixed that, Dual-Wielding as a base feature doesn't suck at all and require fighting styles and feats to make it competive (this is sarcasm by the way,)
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
A bit back on track, the cleric druid and the shaman seem to focus on different levels of life.

The Cleric focuses on the lifestyles and spirits of the humaniods.

The Druid focuses on the lives of animals, plants, fungi, fey, and humaniods attuned with nature.

The Shaman focuses on the "lives" of the wild spirits and the ancestral spirits of the nature attuned.

What would be the difference between a Shepard Druid and a Shaman?

The shaman is more attuned with the spirits than all of nature and has more command over it. The druid cares about the plants and animals whereas the shaman is more concerned with the spirits surrounding the plants and animals.

Hmm, that is an interesting way to look at it. I think the Shaman and the druid overlap a lot though, since I think the druid is equally concerned with the spirits of nature.

I think actually the shepherd Druid shows us a version of the shaman as a class, and a "shaman subclass" could be built off of the druid fairly easily.

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Makes perfect sense to me. You wouldn't really see a Shaman acting as a conservationist the way a Shepherd Druid would; the Shepherd has strong views about what kinds of creatures "need" protection or "should" be left to live as they like. Likewise, you wouldn't see a Shepherd Druid acting as a guide or mediator--perhaps a teacher, but only insofar as that teaching leads to the protection of "vulnerable" wildlife.

The Shaman mediates between two worlds--that of the spirits in and around all things, and that of the physical, material world. The Druid doesn't so much mediate as intervene.

Hmmm, I don't know.

I can see a Shaman intervening to protect a place as a home for the spirits, protecting the balance between the two worlds by intervening.

And I think a few of the Druid subclasses do fit really well into the role of guides and mediators. Dream Druids come to mind as a Druid who is very much built to work with people, and lead them down good paths instead of committing harms.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Hmm, that is an interesting way to look at it. I think the Shaman and the druid overlap a lot though, since I think the druid is equally concerned with the spirits of nature.

I think actually the shepherd Druid shows us a version of the shaman as a class, and a "shaman subclass" could be built off of the druid fairly easily.

The druid does seem to care about spirits. However the druid focuses more of the wholeness of the community of nature. Druids may play favorites

Moon: Animals
Dreams: Fey
Shepherd: Animal and fey spirits
Spores: Fungi

But they never exclude the other members.


D&D shamans seem to go for spirits and people. They respect animals, plants, fungi, and fey but that's not their jam. And shaman expand to non-natural spirits as well: ancestral spirits, city spirits, and ghostly undead.

You could squeeze a shaman out of the druid or cleric. However I think it would be better as its own class into other to escape baggage
 

cbwjm

Seb-wejem
Hmm, that is an interesting way to look at it. I think the Shaman and the druid overlap a lot though, since I think the druid is equally concerned with the spirits of nature.

I think actually the shepherd Druid shows us a version of the shaman as a class, and a "shaman subclass" could be built off of the druid fairly easily.

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Hmmm, I don't know.

I can see a Shaman intervening to protect a place as a home for the spirits, protecting the balance between the two worlds by intervening.

And I think a few of the Druid subclasses do fit really well into the role of guides and mediators. Dream Druids come to mind as a Druid who is very much built to work with people, and lead them down good paths instead of committing harms.
I saw document someone wrote up once for a shaman class that just rewrote the fluff on druid to turn it into a shaman. If you didn't already know the druid mechanics, it could have easily been a separate class.

I will at times just use druid as a shaman or tribal spellcaster, I don't attach too much weight to the term druid. Mind you, I will often do the same with the cleric.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
The druid does seem to care about spirits. However the druid focuses more of the wholeness of the community of nature. Druids may play favorites

Moon: Animals
Dreams: Fey
Shepherd: Animal and fey spirits
Spores: Fungi

But they never exclude the other members.


D&D shamans seem to go for spirits and people. They respect animals, plants, fungi, and fey but that's not their jam. And shaman expand to non-natural spirits as well: ancestral spirits, city spirits, and ghostly undead.

You could squeeze a shaman out of the druid or cleric. However I think it would be better as its own class into other to escape baggage

Completely fair, I guess I'm just worried about another nature-themed full-caster. I'm not sure how big that design space is.
 

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