Neanderthal

[vickruck]

Hey guys, I am new to the pathfinder rule set and also new to dm'ing i have decided to take one of my favourite races in D&D 3.5 and convert it to pathfinder i was just wondering if you guys had any advice on it ie. if its overpowered, underpowered .
Thanks

Neanderthal Racial Traits
• +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, –2 Intelligence.
Neanderthals are strong and hardy, but are
hampered by slow intellects.
• Medium: As Medium creatures, neanderthals have no
special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Neanderthal base land speed is 30 feet.
• Primitive Weapon Mastery (Ex): Neanderthals have a
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls made with the following
weapons: bolas, club, dart, greatclub, goad, harpoon, iuak,
javelin, longspear, quarterstaff, ritiik, shortbow, shortspear,
sling, spear, sugliin, throwing axe, and tiger skull club.
• +2 racial bonus on Perception and Survival checks.
Neanderthals have excellent senses and know how to get
along in the wild with ease.
• Climate Tolerant (Ex): Neanderthals suffer little harm
from environmental extremes of heat or cold. They do not
have to make Fortitude saves in extreme environments
between –20° and 140° F (severe cold to severe heat). This
ability does not provide any protection from fire or cold
damage. This ability counts as if a neanderthal had the
Cold Endurance feat for purposes of fulfilling prerequisites
for other feats or prestige classes.
• Human Blood: For all effects related to race, a neanderthal
is considered a human. Neanderthals are just
as vulnerable to special effects that affect humans as
humans are, and they can use magic items that are only
usable by humans.
• Illiteracy: Neanderthals do not automatically know how
to read and write. A neanderthal must spend 2 skill points in
linguistics to gain the ability to read and write all languages
he is able to speak.
• Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages:
Dwarven, Giant, and Orc. Neanderthals are familiar with
the languages of giants and orcs, for these two groups are
common enemies that vie for competing land with them.
Likewise, their penchant for dwelling in caves and underground
ruins often puts them in contact with dwarves.

 

[gamerprinter]

Don't use red, that's usually reserved for Moderators, when they are moderating, read the FAQ. Otherwise welcome to the site, plus the red is hard to read anyway. Stick with white text.

It looks like you're trying to create a player character race, if so, to best balance with Pathfinder, the standard advice is a +2 Stat in one physical stat (Str, Dex, Con), and +2 Stat in mental stats (Int, Wis, Chr), then a -2 stat in physical or mental. You cannot have two +2 stats in physical, as you have here and be considered a balanced PC class - no matter how well that fits to your Neanderthal idea.

Even though the idea of class dipping into Neanderthal seems odd (if you can do it at all), you have too many first level abilities. Since in Pathfinder, the classes get abilities at every level, there's also a goal to keep a one level dip from looking too inviting. So spread your base 1st level abilities between 1st and 2nd level - two abilities and/or a feat.

If otherwise is considered Human, does that mean a free feat at first level? The stat bonuses couldn't justify that.

Agreeing that a Neanderthal is a primitive, being able to use every single kind of primitive weapon in existence? That's seems a bit much. In fact I'd limit it to handful of weapons: hand axe, club, possibly a spearpoint.

Neanderthals proliferated in the Ice Age covered regions of northern Europe. I could see cold environment advantages for such a race. Having the ability to excell in any chosen environment doesn't seem to apply for Neanderthal.

I'd limit the language to Neanderthal common if there's such a thing, otherwise regional dialects of a limited language, think Druid's Cant, not a true language. I'd allow them to imitate animal sounds, but would not allow for additional languages.

YMMV

Oh and welcome to ENWorld!

 

[vickruck]

Hey guys sorry about the red i have worked on it some more and i have come up with this as to the human feat bounus i am not sure what to do yet with that any advice?

Neanderthal Racial Traits
• +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, –2 Intelligence, -2 Dexterity.
Neanderthals are strong and hardy, but are
hampered by a lack of intelligence and slow reflexes.
• Medium: As Medium creatures, neanderthals have no
special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Neanderthal base land speed is 30 feet.
• Primitive Weapon Mastery (Ex): Neanderthals have a
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls made with the following
weapons: club, javelin, shortbow, shortspear,
• +2 racial bonus on Perception and Survival checks.
Neanderthals have excellent senses and know how to get
along in the wild with ease.
• Cold Tolerant (Ex): Neanderthals suffer little harm
from environmental extremes of cold. They do not
have to make Fortitude saves in extreme environments
between –20° and 40° F (severe cold). This
ability does not provide any protection from cold
damage. This ability counts as if a neanderthal had the
Cold Endurance feat for purposes of fulfilling prerequisites
for other feats or prestige classes.
• Human Blood: For all effects related to race, a neanderthal
is considered a human. Neanderthals are just
as vulnerable to special effects that affect humans as
humans are, and they can use magic items that are only
usable by humans.
• Illiteracy: Neanderthals do not automatically know how
to read and write. A neanderthal must spend 2 skill points in
linguistics to gain the ability to read and write all languages
he is able to speak.
• Automatic Languages: Common.

 

[vickruck]

Don't use red, that's usually reserved for Moderators, when they are moderating, read the FAQ. Otherwise welcome to the site, plus the red is hard to read anyway. Stick with white text.

It looks like you're trying to create a player character race, if so, to best balance with Pathfinder, the standard advice is a +2 Stat in one physical stat (Str, Dex, Con), and +2 Stat in mental stats (Int, Wis, Chr), then a -2 stat in physical or mental. You cannot have two +2 stats in physical, as you have here and be considered a balanced PC class - no matter how well that fits to your Neanderthal idea.

Even though the idea of class dipping into Neanderthal seems odd (if you can do it at all), you have too many first level abilities. Since in Pathfinder, the classes get abilities at every level, there's also a goal to keep a one level dip from looking too inviting. So spread your base 1st level abilities between 1st and 2nd level - two abilities and/or a feat.

If otherwise is considered Human, does that mean a free feat at first level? The stat bonuses couldn't justify that.

Agreeing that a Neanderthal is a primitive, being able to use every single kind of primitive weapon in existence? That's seems a bit much. In fact I'd limit it to handful of weapons: hand axe, club, possibly a spearpoint.

Neanderthals proliferated in the Ice Age covered regions of northern Europe. I could see cold environment advantages for such a race. Having the ability to excell in any chosen environment doesn't seem to apply for Neanderthal.

I'd limit the language to Neanderthal common if there's such a thing, otherwise regional dialects of a limited language, think Druid's Cant, not a true language. I'd allow them to imitate animal sounds, but would not allow for additional languages.

YMMV

Oh and welcome to ENWorld!

Hey guys sorry about the red i have worked on it some more and i have come up with this as to the human feat bounus i am not sure what to do yet with that any advice?

Neanderthal Racial Traits
• +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, –2 Intelligence, -2 Dexterity.
Neanderthals are strong and hardy, but are
hampered by a lack of intelligence and slow reflexes.
• Medium: As Medium creatures, neanderthals have no
special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Neanderthal base land speed is 30 feet.
• Primitive Weapon Mastery (Ex): Neanderthals have a
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls made with the following
weapons: club, javelin, shortbow, shortspear,
• +2 racial bonus on Perception and Survival checks.
Neanderthals have excellent senses and know how to get
along in the wild with ease.
• Cold Tolerant (Ex): Neanderthals suffer little harm
from environmental extremes of cold. They do not
have to make Fortitude saves in extreme environments
between –20° and 40° F (severe cold). This
ability does not provide any protection from cold
damage. This ability counts as if a neanderthal had the
Cold Endurance feat for purposes of fulfilling prerequisites
for other feats or prestige classes.
• Human Blood: For all effects related to race, a neanderthal
is considered a human. Neanderthals are just
as vulnerable to special effects that affect humans as
humans are, and they can use magic items that are only
usable by humans.
• Illiteracy: Neanderthals do not automatically know how
to read and write. A neanderthal must spend 2 skill points in
linguistics to gain the ability to read and write all languages
he is able to speak.
• Automatic Languages: Common.

 

[gamerprinter]

Because the Neaderthal gets some nice physical stats, whereas human only gets one +2 to the players choice of stat, Neanderthal cannot have a bonus first level feat, that's reserved for 'normal' humans only.

Again, I get it you want a strong and hardy race, but for a Pathfinder player character race having both +2 Str and +2 Con is too much (even if you balance that with two -2 stats, still not enough) - this race isn't balanced for players because of that. I would suggest either +2 Str OR +2 Con as player choice at character generation, not both. Then give it -2 Int, and +2 in one other mental stat. I can see how that doesn't seem very Neanderthal, but we are trying to build a balanced player character race, first and foremost.

Personally I prefer to see: +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Int (or +2 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Wis) as being close enough to Neanderthal, yet balanced for Pathfinder.

Otherwise, your re-adjusted race seems much better, believeable and balanced. Good work!

Also, since your first write up looked more like a class than a race - obviously your second post corrected that by making it racial stats only, I think it might be worthy to create a Paragon Class for Neanderthal, so you can incorporate ideas from you first post in what a quintessential Neanderthal should look like, if he didn't take a base PF class.

After this provide a preferred base class list, with perhaps some archetype altered class features to better fit your Neanderthal. Obviously, Barbarian is probably the best base class choice for Neanderthal, with most of the Barbarian archetypes from the Advanced Players Guide as usable choices.

I'm a 3pp game developer, and I am designing races with Paragon classes for publication at the moment, so I know its a good idea.

Keep it up, you're on the right track.

GP

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The thing is, according to the most recent findings, Neandertals were stronger & tougher than regular humans- much more bone & muscle mass per given height than us homo sapiens. Skeletons have been found showing healed injuries that would have killed us. I honestly think that his bonus to both Str & Con is key to modeling what he's aiming for, and needs to be kept.

You're 100% right, though, that they can't have the bonus feat & What have you that humans get in addition.

Balancing it beyond that, though...

Perhaps a speed penalty in addition to the stat penalties: base 20' instead of 30' (physical power does not translate directly to speed).

 

[gamerprinter]

Oh, I agree that bonuses to Str and Con better fits a Neanderthal, but doing so makes it LA+1, which is too powerful for a base race, right? If you want LA 0, it has to be one or the other. Unless he can live with Neanderthal as LA+1, I didn't think that was his goal.

GP

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I don't know about the LA+1: bonuses to 2 physical stats are great, but coupled with penalties to both a physical AND a mental stat and the loss of most Human bonuses gets you a long way towards being balanced, IMHO.

The trick is balancing out the other "Neanderthal-y" things...which is why I suggested dropping base speed (which is also backed up by their morphology while stockier & with more massive bones, they were, on average, shorter).

To that end, I'm also not sure about the inclusion of Cold resistance, personally. While more massive and hairier than we humans, that doesn't necessarily translate into a significant improvement in thermal resistance. They were building fires and wearing skins, just like OUR ancestors, after all.

 

[gamerprinter]

Building classes is certainly an 'art' not a 'science'. I try to stick by a formula, especially regarding racial stats, but there's room for mobility. I agree that the cold toleration is a bit of as stretch, but possibly still workable. And I agree that by dropping their movement 10', would help accomodate the double physical stat bonuses.

It really isn't a bad race build - I've seen far worse, far more broken attempts.

Make one more tweak or two and I think he'll be there.

 

[pawsplay]

Hey guys sorry about the red i have worked on it some more and i have come up with this as to the human feat bounus i am not sure what to do yet with that any advice?

Neanderthal Racial Traits
• +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, –2 Intelligence, -2 Dexterity.

This is okay. Certainly, if you have a bonus to both Str and Con, the race needs to take a hit in some other area as a cost. I'm not sure -Dex fits conceptually, though.

• Primitive Weapon Mastery (Ex): Neanderthals have a
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls made with the following
weapons: club, javelin, shortbow, shortspear,

The Master says, "What significance does this have to a Neanderthal barbarian?"

This looks like a really good concept for a Neanderthal Trait, some sort of mini, broad Weapon Focus bonus.

• +2 racial bonus on Perception and Survival checks.
Neanderthals have excellent senses and know how to get
along in the wild with ease.

Sure, I'll buy this, although apart from sense of smell, there are reasons to believe that humans have some of the best developed sight and hearing of the hominids.

• Cold Tolerant (Ex): Neanderthals suffer little harm
from environmental extremes of cold. They do not
have to make Fortitude saves in extreme environments
between –20° and 40° F (severe cold). This
ability does not provide any protection from cold
damage. This ability counts as if a neanderthal had the
Cold Endurance feat for purposes of fulfilling prerequisites
for other feats or prestige classes.

Plausible, but it would be surprising if, as a race, they had this trait to such an extreme compared to other wild folk. I might create a limited form of Endurance, instead.

• Human Blood: For all effects related to race, a neanderthal
is considered a human. Neanderthals are just
as vulnerable to special effects that affect humans as
humans are, and they can use magic items that are only
usable by humans.

Sure. Although it begs the question, why are halflings not humans, as well?

• Illiteracy: Neanderthals do not automatically know how
to read and write. A neanderthal must spend 2 skill points in
linguistics to gain the ability to read and write all languages
he is able to speak.

The Master says, "Illiteracy was removed from Pathfinder for a reason. What is yours for re-introducing it?"

• Automatic Languages: Common.

Probably. All PC races seem to, by default, have picked up a smattering of the common tongue. But what is the native Neanderthal language? Unless Common is pretty primeval, or Neanderthals get around a lot (yet have not bred out), it seems like they would have their own tongue.