D&D 5E Need an outsider's perspective here.

[randrak]

I run a game with two other friends, one plays a Lawful Good Paladin while another plays a Chaotic Neutral Wizard. These two budding adventurers (level 2) were on their main mission when a possible side-quest presented itself in the form of a map looted from bandits. The map pointed to a cornfield in the middle of nowhere, saying there was treasure there. They searched the nearby town for information and learned that there were rumors that a witch lived in a tower in the middle of a cornfield some 200 years ago. Children went missing during that time and the town back then hired adventurers to take care of business. The adventurers went and came back, saying the witch was dead. The rumor also states that the "Dread Fields" were dangerous and nobody that goes in comes back. They chose to check it out.

Long story short, the witch was not dead. She bound the souls of evil people to scarecrows, binding them to the field and channeled their life-force for her magical research as a form of eternal punishment for their deeds. The previous adventurers learned that the culprit of the child kidnappings had been an evil wanderer that was then caught by the witch and turned into a scarecrow. They figured it would be best to say she was dead so people would leave the cornfield alone as they thought she was doing good work.

Cue the new adventurer duo. They entered the field and had a fight with a scarecrow, killing it and freeing the imprisoned soul. Hurt but still on their feet, they were chased by other scarecrows into the tower, where they broke the lock to go in. Inside they triggered a trap that sent a swarm of crows after them. At the time, the witch was in the middle of a ritual and unaware of everything going on in the tower. They found her library and the wizard immediately stole as many books as she could. The paladin heard the witch's chanting in the upper floor, but fearing that she was evil and they were too hurt, she didn't want to go up there. They then found a map leading to a secret basement (killing a map mimic in the process) and went down there to search for the treasure, which they found. After fighting the shadows guarding the treasure, they were nearly dying so they opted to have a long rest.

During the long rest, the witch finished her ritual and found her home broken into. She found the duo in the basement (they tried to hide but the wizard rolled incredibly low). The witch was livid that they broke into her home, freed one of her trapped souls and tried to steal her stuff. She demanded that they return what had been stolen immediately. The wizard had a nasty attitude, feeling entitled and saying that they weren't at fault because they were attacked and only acted on self defense. When the witch pointed out the stolen goods, they said that they would return it and that it should all be alright. The witch decided to see if they were evil people worthy of replacing the soul she lost. She used magic to see their alignment (basically to see if they were evil enough). When the results came back that they weren't, she told them to apologize and compensate her. The wizard still said she thought she was in the right, stating that they thought the witch was dead and as a fellow magic user, she should understand the lust for knowledge one has. She was acting too arrogant and the witch blasted her, putting her to sleep. The paladin apologized, but she too was not sincere at all (the player sucks at being good, always has, but I love her anyway)...as in she still believed that what she did was alright. The witch, tired of their attitude, marked the paladin and said that if they do not bring an evil soul for her within a week (very doable in that area), that she will be getting one of their souls. The session ended with them leaving the tower (and plotting to go back and killing the witch it seems).

The players then told me afterward that they believed the side-quest was a waste of time, since they got nothing from it (aside from enough experience to level up) and that the witch was irrational, going overboard with the punishment since they did nothing wrong and returned the stolen goods. I personally believe that, if someone strode into my home, breaking locks, stealing my stuff, killing my guard dog and then acted like they were in the right, that I'd be pissed too.

However, I wish to know an outsider's opinion...did I make the witch go overboard or are they just mad because they got caught? Also...should I change their alignments after this?

 

[Hathorym]

I agree with you as a DM, for what it's worth, but your players don't seem to care about consequence. They wanted the xp and that was it. You gave them a great story, moral quandry, and a believable character and setting. They scoffed.

It sounds to me that your players want a different game than you're running. I appreciate that you spoke to them after the session, though it's tough to see your hard work and creativity thrashed like that. Perhaps you should have a heart to heart about what everyone wants and plan a game accordingly.

Ultimately, I think the question that you should be asking is are you being respected for your efforts? I'd say not.

 

[randrak]

So basically, I should stop putting any effort into plots and just give them random encounters all the time?

They claim that they like RPing and one of them even wants to play a weak character because it's rich in RP potential...but then if there's any consequences to their actions, they just don't like it. I refuse to run a game where consequences are ignored...

 

[Lanliss]

It might be caused by previous experience. Up until then, did they get something for every quest they did? If they are used to getting loot, that might be the problem. I would not recommend giving up, especially if part of your enjoyment is in crafting these plots. Maybe make extra sure that they know the side quest isn't done yet? "This is just an extension of the first quest, not a whole new one. You have to complete the full side quest to get any reward." If they play their cards right they could end up with a powerful witch as a friend, or at least not as an enemy, which I think would be reward enough.

Now from the opposite side, the darker point of view. Witches are not reasonable. They are generally considered insane, at the least. Possibly Insane and Evil, and maybe some other trait too, like Spiteful or Envious. Witches are dangerous, and not to messed with, even if they are supposed to be dead. Any Adventurer worth their salt should know this, and be way more careful when raiding a Witches tower.

So, I would say neither of you is in the wrong, just misunderstanding each other I think.

 

[Hathorym]

So basically, I should stop putting any effort into plots and just give them random encounters all the time?

They claim that they like RPing and one of them even wants to play a weak character because it's rich in RP potential...but then if there's any consequences to their actions, they just don't like it. I refuse to run a game where consequences are ignored...

Honestly, I would talk to them and just directly say, "you say you want this, but when I do it, I get to the impression that it's not. Can we talk about what we really want from a campaign?"

For my group, we one time decided to go around the table giving one word each which symbolized what they really wanted from a campaign. it ended up being one of the most enjoyable campaigns we ever had. We told the whole story and it was satisfying.

 

[Rhenny]

I agree with you as a DM, for what it's worth, but your players don't seem to care about consequence. They wanted the xp and that was it. You gave them a great story, moral quandry, and a believable character and setting. They scoffed.

It sounds to me that your players want a different game than you're running. I appreciate that you spoke to them after the session, though it's tough to see your hard work and creativity thrashed like that. Perhaps you should have a heart to heart about what everyone wants and plan a game accordingly.

Ultimately, I think the question that you should be asking is are you being respected for your efforts? I'd say not.

I agree with Hathorym.

They kind of sound like sore losers.

Also, how do they know that they will not gain anything if they eventually defeat the witch? Now they know that this creature is harvesting evil souls, and they have been given a moral test. If they can come back and defeat the witch, you can reward them. When she eventually dies, you can have her shrivel up and turn to ash, leaving a powerful item behind. You can even have the Paladin's god send her an omen/sign or message to let her know that she did the right thing by ending this evil.

I like the scenario you created, but if they just want to fight easy to beat monsters and gain xp and treasure, well..what can I say.

 

[Lanliss]

I agree with Hathorym.

They kind of sound like sore losers.

Also, how do they know that they will not gain anything if they eventually defeat the witch? Now they know that this creature is harvesting evil souls, and they have been given a moral test. If they can come back and defeat the witch, you can reward them. When she eventually dies, you can have her shrivel up and turn to ash, leaving a powerful item behind. You can even have the Paladin's god send her an omen/sign or message to let her know that she did the right thing by ending this evil.

I like the scenario you created, but if they just want to fight easy to beat monsters and gain xp and treasure, well..what can I say.

I think the witch is in the right. Sure, she is keeping souls for herself, but she is using them to get more evil souls. Kind of an end-justifies-the-means case, IMO. If it were me, I would make it obvious that the witch is good, and killing her would be the wrong thing to do. That omen to the Paladin would be a warning against further transgressions.

 

[SunGold]

Taking a long rest in the witch's home they just wrecked & robbed, and then talking trash after getting busted? Your wizard has a terminal case of sass-mouth.

Don't see a need to change their alignments though. Chaotic Neutral was Chaotic Neutralin'. LG thought she was raiding an "evil" home, and apologized when she realized otherwise. "The apology didn't seem sincere enough" doesn't seem egregious enough to force an alignment change.

 

[werecorpse]

Am I right in understanding that the optimal action for the characters would have been to ignore the map? I'm not a fan of scenarios where the best course of action is to do nothing - scenarios should encourage involvement and action IMO.

Some players don't like the bait and switch scenario, they want a game where the witch in the cornfield binding souls into scarecrows to power her rituals is evil. As it is she still might be depending on if you think that sort of thing is ok. They made enquiries at the town and had no inkling that she was not evil - only that despite some adventurers killed her some time ago the corn fields were still inimical and anyone who went there didn't return. They want to solve problems like "what is the mystery of the corn fields" and "if she returned to life how do we stop her permanently" etc. especially if one is playing a paladin and usually struggles to play the alignment it sounds like they were set up to fail. If she struggles to do good maybe giving her a few simpler chances would help her out.

The principal thing they are now being asked to fix after returning the stuff they stole is bring back an evil soul because they freed one by destroying the scarecrow. Right? It wouldn't be unreasonable to seek religious guidance on this - I'm not sure that the witch is something they should be helping. What is her ultimate ritual that she needs the souls for? Should Paladins help witches capture souls, even evil ones?Why did the scarecrow attack them when they approached the corn field if so doing might precipitate it being destroyed and the soul escaping? Seems to me at least part of the responsibility for its escape is on the witch (if my dog roams around my property and attacks anyone who enters and I have no warning to people & it attacks them and they kill it that's at least partly on me). It seems like they were set up to incur this penalty. In your view what should they have done when attacked by the scarecrow? Or should they just have not investigated in which case that seems a bit self defeating if you want to run adventures.

so if the scenario is one where it was just a set up gotcha moment I can understand why the players are disheartened. We tried to be a paladin and friend and investigate a possible evil site and do good, there were no obvious clues that our actions were wrong but turns out everything we did was wrong and what we should have done is just burn the treasure map the moment we got it. Oops.

 

[Lanliss]

Am I right in understanding that the optimal action for the characters would have been to ignore the map? I'm not a fan of scenarios where the best course of action is to do nothing - scenarios should encourage involvement and action IMO.

Some players don't like the bait and switch scenario, they want a game where the witch in the cornfield binding souls into scarecrows to power her rituals is evil. As it is she still might be depending on if you think that sort of thing is ok. They made enquiries at the town and had no inkling that she was not evil - only that despite some adventurers killed her some time ago the corn fields were still inimical and anyone who went there didn't return. They want to solve problems like "what is the mystery of the corn fields" and "if she returned to life how do we stop her permanently" etc. especially if one is playing a paladin and usually struggles to play the alignment it sounds like they were set up to fail. If she struggles to do good maybe giving her a few simpler chances would help her out.

The principal thing they are now being asked to fix after returning the stuff they stole is bring back an evil soul because they freed one by destroying the scarecrow. Right? It wouldn't be unreasonable to seek religious guidance on this - I'm not sure that the witch is something they should be helping. What is her ultimate ritual that she needs the souls for? Should Paladins help witches capture souls, even evil ones?Why did the scarecrow attack them when they approached the corn field if so doing might precipitate it being destroyed and the soul escaping? Seems to me at least part of the responsibility for its escape is on the witch (if my dog roams around my property and attacks anyone who enters and I have no warning to people & it attacks them and they kill it that's at least partly on me). It seems like they were set up to incur this penalty. In your view what should they have done when attacked by the scarecrow? Or should they just have not investigated in which case that seems a bit self defeating if you want to run adventures.

so if the scenario is one where it was just a set up gotcha moment I can understand why the players are disheartened. We tried to be a paladin and friend and investigate a possible evil site and do good, there were no obvious clues that our actions were wrong but turns out everything we did was wrong and what we should have done is just burn the treasure map the moment we got it. Oops.

Where I saw them go wrong.

1) Stealing from the tower
2) Sleeping in the witches home. Text book Fairytale move, that always ends with children getting eaten.
3) talking back after they learned the truth. Not really a bad thing, but not smart when dealing with a powerful being, and I don't care how dead a stranger thinks I am, looting my home is bad.

Debatable issues, IMO

Is capturing souls inherently evil, even if they are evil souls? Depends on a lot of things. Would this Paladin murder a Necromancy wizard who was working with her? It would be the same as this witch is doing, so killing one would mean you should kill the other.

Is the witch evil? We don't know, all we know is that she is doing a ritual, not necessarily powered by the souls.

Is looting a dead persons home a bad idea? I would argue yes, but that kind of goes against the classic D&D trope of looting the ancient temple, so it is debatable.

As far as I can tell, the optimal choice would have been to run from the scarecrow, rather than kill it, and not start robbing the witch as soon as they got there. Maybe even politely interrupt her ritual, just to let her know you cannot leave her house unless she calls off her guard dogs.