D&D General Not the Wicked Witch: Revisiting the Legacy of Lorraine Williams

[Iosue]

That one statement however doesn't really provide all the context. Gary shared with me the exchange when it happened, so here's the entire context.

To provide context on what might have set Rob off, this thread in Dragonsfoot is what Rob is referencing. Dragonsfoot removed the "B.S." word Gary used, but that apparently is what Rob is referencing. (And apparently ENWorld has an automatic filter for it, which I didn't realize.

READ 1st: Castle & Crusade Society Tribute Chainmail Gam - Dragonsfoot

So, it's a little more complex than the podcast makes out. I mean, if Rob left Castle Zagyg over the Dragonsfoot argument, then at the very least both parties were petty.

The full exchange pretty much confirms the podcast's take on it, IMO.

Gygax posts his recollections on Dragonsfoot. Kuntz respectfully suggests he is misremembering something. Gygax comes back disproportionately hot, and makes it a point to bring up a person's dislike of Kuntz. I mean, this was essentially a disagreement over 30+ year old memories between ostensible friends and collaborators, but Gygax acts like he's shutting down some "But AKSHUALLY..." nerd.

I will not speculate as to Kuntz's motivations to leave Castle Zagyg, other than to say that I doubt the Dragonsfoot thread was only reason. In fact, his fairly professional letter resigning from the project (which Gygax calls "hate mail") gives other reasons as well. At no point in this "hate mail" does he attack Gygax personally, or assign any blame or reproach to him. At best, there is an oblique reference to the Dragonsfoot thread.

Gygax, on the other hand, liberally peppers his response with mocking, personal attacks on Kuntz's character and work ethic, culminating with the drudging up of an insult from when Kuntz was a kid.

 

[Parmandur]

The full exchange pretty much confirms the podcast's take on it, IMO.

Gygax posts his recollections on Dragonsfoot. Kuntz respectfully suggests he is misremembering something. Gygax comes back disproportionately hot, and makes it a point to bring up a person's dislike of Kuntz. I mean, this was essentially a disagreement over 30+ year old memories between ostensible friends and collaborators, but Gygax acts like he's shutting down some "But AKSHUALLY..." nerd.

I will not speculate as to Kuntz's motivations to leave Castle Zagyg, other than to say that I doubt the Dragonsfoot thread was only reason. In fact, his fairly professional letter resigning from the project (which Gygax calls "hate mail") gives other reasons as well. At no point in this "hate mail" does he attack Gygax personally, or assign any blame or reproach to him. At best, there is an oblique reference to the Dragonsfoot thread.

Gygax, on the other hand, liberally peppers his response with mocking, personal attacks on Kuntz's character and work ethic, culminating with the drudging up of an insult from when Kuntz was a kid.

That was so painful and sad to listen to.

 

[Clint_L]

I would say while 1 is true, 2 is false, as he showed a lot of kindness in his later years. People don't remember how he was here in the decade he was alive, and I know he showed many people some levels of kindness.


That one statement however doesn't really provide all the context. Gary shared with me the exchange when it happened, so here's the entire context.





To provide context on what might have set Rob off, this thread in Dragonsfoot is what Rob is referencing. Dragonsfoot removed the "B.S." word Gary used, but that apparently is what Rob is referencing. (And apparently ENWorld has an automatic filter for it, which I didn't realize.

READ 1st: Castle & Crusade Society Tribute Chainmail Gam - Dragonsfoot

So, it's a little more complex than the podcast makes out. I mean, if Rob left Castle Zagyg over the Dragonsfoot argument, then at the very least both parties were petty.

If Gygax shared those communications in order to make himself look better...oof. Swing and a miss. He comes off as condescending, self-righteous, and petty.

 

[Mannahnin]

If Gygax shared those communications in order to make himself look better...oof. Swing and a miss. He comes off as condescending, self-righteous, and petty.

And deeply, profoundly hypocritical in his reference to royalties.

 

[JohnRTroy]

The full exchange pretty much confirms the podcast's take on it, IMO.

Gygax posts his recollections on Dragonsfoot. Kuntz respectfully suggests he is misremembering something. Gygax comes back disproportionately hot, and makes it a point to bring up a person's dislike of Kuntz. I mean, this was essentially a disagreement over 30+ year old memories between ostensible friends and collaborators, but Gygax acts like he's shutting down some "But AKSHUALLY..." nerd.

Gygax, on the other hand, liberally peppers his response with mocking, personal attacks on Kuntz's character and work ethic, culminating with the drudging up of an insult from when Kuntz was a kid.

Two quick points. The Dragonsfoot argument looks a lot more lukewarm when put in that context, if you judge Gary for that level of conflict, you'd have to put the same judgements on half the posters here.

Secondly, I think the context of the insult is not Gary drudging up the memory to be petty but referencing the specific dragonsfoot conflict they just had the previous day. So looking from that specific perspective.

In terms of the work ethic -- well, Rob Kuntz proved to miss a lot of deadlines and as others have reported elsewhere, he pretty much lost clout with other publishers because of lateness. So that's not coming out of nowhere.

If Gygax shared those communications in order to make himself look better...oof. Swing and a miss. He comes off as condescending, self-righteous, and petty.

This was an email to me specifically, not something on the forums. I only shared it because I feel it provides more context than the quick blurb on the podcast.

But then again, a lot of you will believe what you want to believe... in the 16 years since his death I've seen him be transformed from a real person people interacted with to a figure who will get analyzed and criticized by folks who didn't even know him or who weren't even alive or in this hobby at the time.

This is why I hope there will never be a movie about him, since it will increase the distortion. At the very least, the most comforting thing I think will happen is eventually, he and D&D will be forgotten after a few hundred years...as is the fate of most things in the world. And people will find new petty things to argue and critique. Such is the way of life.

 

[TiQuinn]

But then again, a lot of you will believe what you want to believe... in the 16 years since his death I've seen him be transformed from a real person people interacted with to a figure who will get analyzed and criticized by folks who didn't even know him or who weren't even alive or in this hobby at the time.

For the record, many of us are old enough to remember the Col_Pladoh threads on Dragonsfoot firsthand as they were posted, and had anyone spoken up to pose a criticism or temper what Gygax had said at that time, they would’ve been ridiculed and banned from the board at that time. Not everyone looked at Gygax in the same adoring light. What I see is reversion to the mean. We’re going from Gygax is the Creator of D&D and a Legend to Gygax was someone who’s flaws are all over the business and relationships he had. Perhaps someone will counter eventually with anecdotes that temper the negativity even more, but bringing up his posts on Dragonsfoot ain’t it.

 

[JohnRTroy]

What I see is reversion to the mean. We’re going from Gygax is the Creator of D&D and a Legend to Gygax was someone who’s flaws are all over the business and relationships he had. Perhaps someone will counter eventually with anecdotes that temper the negativity even more, but bringing up his posts on Dragonsfoot ain’t it.

True, but I see a little too much overcorrection lately, and I'm more aiming it at folks who just see him now as a public figure rather than an actual former poster here.

 

[TiQuinn]

True, but I see a little too much overcorrection lately, and I'm more aiming it at folks who just see him now as a public figure rather than an actual former poster here.

I think Luke Gygax might be an interesting interview on this point, and I’m a little surprised he wasn’t included on the podcast. Maybe they did reach out to him and he didn’t want to be involved, or maybe they wanted to focus on people who actually were adults during TSR’s time, but Luke’s been engaged in the industry now for a long time and it feels like an omission. He certainly could speak to his dad’s home life and his relationship for instance.

 

[Mannahnin]

I think Luke Gygax might be an interesting interview on this point, and I’m a little surprised he wasn’t included on the podcast. Maybe they did reach out to him and he didn’t want to be involved, or maybe they wanted to focus on people who actually were adults during TSR’s time, but Luke’s been engaged in the industry now for a long time and it feels like an omission. He certainly could speak to his dad’s home life and his relationship for instance.

Luke, Tim Kask, and Frank Mentzer are a few I've been a little surprised not to hear from. Nothing from Erol Otus so far either (I'm on Ring of Delusion now).

 

[TiQuinn]

Luke, Tim Kask, and Frank Mentzer are a few I've been a little surprised not to hear from. Nothing from Erol Otus so far either (I'm on Ring of Delusion now).

Yeah, definitely some curious omissions and I’m surprised about Kask too, since he is directly mentioned, and yet they don’t say whether they tried reaching out to him, as they do with others.