D&D General Not the Wicked Witch: Revisiting the Legacy of Lorraine Williams

[Thomas Shey]

However, I have now heard a lot of people talk about how they never start a series until they know it's been finished. Which of course is a great way to ensure that it never gets finished -- if the first book flops, the publisher isn't going to plug gamely ahead, they'll drop it and so much for that. At the same time, I can hardly blame the folks taking this attitude, after getting burned by stuff like ASoIaF. Writers face enough problems today, they don't need this one too. On top of that, GRRM keeps milking the popularity of the setting with things like House of the Dragon, and if he's going to do that, I don't think it's unfair to demand that the original story that put Westeros on the map gets finished!

Given there was a novel serious I was quite taken with do four out of the five books it was intended for, and then the author drop it leaving it as a dangling plotline forever, I'd rather see a series never get going than hit that ever again. Standalone novels, or books about the same characters but without ongoing plotlines are not impossible to do, and I'd rather see more of those than unfinished actual series again any day of the week.

 

[Mr. Lahey]

Having finished the podcast and read a number of sources recently and in the past, I have come to two conclusions:

1. Gary definitely had been crafting a story where he was the hero and Williams was the villain, after he had dispatched the incorrigible Blumes.
2. Gary really wasn’t a nice person.

Firstly, the book Empire of Imagination gives a great account of things from Gary’s perspective. It also expands on things I had read in other interviews Gary had given.

Basically, in this version, Gary wrote D&D with modest input from Dave Arneson. In building this company, he needed money so he ends up taking investment from the Blumes. After the initial success, he heads to LA to expand into TV and film. At this time, the Blumes mismanagement almost destroys the company. He returns to Lake Geneva to oust the Blumes with their rampant nepotism and bad management, only to be betrayed by the manipulative and underhanded Lorraine Williams.

Having since read Jon Peterson’s the Game Wizards and listened to the various people on the podcast, I would say that hubris is absolutely the right word to describe Gary, particularly in the aftermath of the initial success. He, along with the Blumes are equally responsible for the poor management, the poor treatment of staff and the arrogant attitude they displayed.

As far as how to view Gary today, certainly we see him as “the guy” who co-created a game that became a cultural phenomenon. However, I get the impression from the various accounts that, while the mechanics and rules of D&D may come largely from Gary, many of the core concepts that make an RPG were actually pioneered by Dave in his Blackmoor campaign and earlier “medieval Braunsteins”. All of Gary’s claims of how D&D should all be his and his alone really smacks on hypocrisy in that light.

As far as Gary personally, there was a comment on the Rose Estes thread suggesting that he was great as long as you went along with him, but would turn on you if you opposed him. I think that is spot-on, from the description of him being a domineering father with a “my way or the highway” attitude, to his behaviour towards colleagues and others at TSR. I’d love to have been a player in one of his campaigns, but I wouldn’t want to work with someone like that.

Additionally, his whole suggestion that when he signed the document giving TSR ownership of his works, it wasn’t intended to apply to him is just awful. What he’s saying is that he signed it as a way of lying to the other creatives at TSR, to manipulate and trick them into giving away their IP rights.

Turning to Lorraine, certainly she was sneaky in how she outmanoeuvred him, but based on his other demonstrated behaviour, including various other places where he proudly displays his chauvinism, I’m genuinely curious about how Gary had begun to treat her as soon as he realized she would be neither a sycophant nor a silent partner.

Clearly, under Lorraine’s leadership they overextended to the point they had to sell to WotC, but one thing I am not clear on is whether, after her takeover in the mid 80s, was TSR ever truly healthy, or were they always running on borrowed time. I guess we’ll have to wait for that story to come out.

 

[TiQuinn]

Having finished the podcast and read a number of sources recently and in the past, I have come to two conclusions:

1. Gary definitely had been crafting a story where he was the hero and Williams was the villain, after he had dispatched the incorrigible Blumes.
2. Gary really wasn’t a nice person.

That part in the last episode where he turned on Rob Kuntz, who by that point was probably in his 40s, and said “Are you going to take your tiger tank and go home?”, calling back to a jab he made to Rob when he was a child, really showed just how petty Gygax could be.

 

[JohnRTroy]

Having finished the podcast and read a number of sources recently and in the past, I have come to two conclusions:

1. Gary definitely had been crafting a story where he was the hero and Williams was the villain, after he had dispatched the incorrigible Blumes.
2. Gary really wasn’t a nice person.

I would say while 1 is true, 2 is false, as he showed a lot of kindness in his later years. People don't remember how he was here in the decade he was alive, and I know he showed many people some levels of kindness.

That part in the last episode where he turned on Rob Kuntz, who by that point was probably in his 40s, and said “Are you going to take your tiger tank and go home?”, calling back to a jab he made to Rob when he was a child, really showed just how petty Gygax could be.

That one statement however doesn't really provide all the context. Gary shared with me the exchange when it happened, so here's the entire context.

Greetings JRT,

A confidential FYI copy of a hate-mail from Kuntz.

Needless to say, this puts me into a most deplorable situation in regards completion of the castle & dungeons...

Cheers,
Gary

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven." Matthew 5:16
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Gygax
To: Robert Kuntz
Cc: Stephen Chenault ; gailgygaxgalleries
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: CZ Finish

Well Rob,

I am quite at a loss as to how to respond other than as I will hereafter.

I was advised by more than one person that you were unreliable, but I did not want to believe it. I obviously should have.

Your name will be removed from any mention I make of the design of the Castle Zagyg project. I can not speak for any other persons.

I will assuredly delete ther handful of amusing essays you have sent for a compilation with the three dozen I have written. At the rate you were producing more it would have been 2010 or so before your contribution would have been equal to mine...LOL!

Do please dispose of all the creative material I sent to you for the design of the new CZ work.

Please advise a date certain as to when the advance payment sent to you will be returned to Trigee.

Trigee has not been late with any royalty payments, because right now the advance you received for Dark Chateau has not been repaid.

Matters concering Troll Lord Games must be directed to them, as I am not an agent, director, or officer of that firm!

The reasoning for your scorched earth policy actions is know only to you, but burning bridges is usually a most unwise step. I can not believe it is because I refuted your posts regarding the history of the LGTSA, but from your closing statement it seems that it is the proximate cause, that you are taking your Tiger II tank and going home. So be it...

Cheers,
Gary

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven." Matthew 5:16
----- Original Message -----

From: Robert Kuntz
To: GARY GYGAX
Cc: Allan Grohe
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 4:34 AM
Subject: CZ Finish

17 July, 2006

RE: Castle Zagyg Project Finish.

Gary,

I hereby resign from partnership with the Castle Zagyg project. My name should be stricken from all places associated with it. I want no more to do with it.

Reasons abound as to why: The slim future of royalties compared to the effort, the fact that it is not the original castle which will down size sales, the turgid market for C&C (lack of responsive sales of DC, lateness in royalty pays to Trigee fromn TLG), and my need to live beyond what would be offered with all of this in mind. Very simply, something had to go and C&C CZ is the weakest link.

The advance will be returned to Trigee who can dispense it back to the Trolls. I will keep a portion for the maps which I paid to have rendered.

I also want nothing more to do with the compilation of stories from the ex-GH days. I do not give permission to anyone including yourself to use the stories I submitted. Please dispose of the elctronic files as I will be doing the same for yours and all CZ material in elctronic format. All printed matter will be consigned to the waste so have no fear about stray copies.

I also wish my name removed from TLG’s website, forums, and advertising--I will not be attending LGGC ever again. I will be removing the CZ forum on PPP but will maintain the DC forum, for all that is worth.

I will take up all other outstanding financial matters with the Trolls.

No naughty word.

Rob
--
http://www.pied-piper-publishing.com

Greetings JRT,

Actually, the chaps at TLG and Kenzer both warned me about dealing with Rob,
as did a few non-publishing types, noting his total unreliability.

His bomb shell isn't much of an explosion, but it does leave me and the
Trolls in something of a bind, a quandry as to how to proceed with the
castle & dungeons project. I will be pondering the problem over the next few
days.

Steve wants to try again to get Ernie and Luke to work on the project--they
were my first choice. I believe that Allan Grohe and possibly Paul Stormberg
are interested. Mentzer is out because of his very limited time.

Anyway, I am not taken aback, only quite annoyed at Rob's unprofessional
behavior. He is definately mercenary, and much of thst is my fault, as I cut
him in on the Greyuhawk D&D supplement when he deserved nothing more than a
thanks and perhaps a few hundred bucks for his input. The royalties he
received were evidentally too much for an immature young man and spoiled
his perspective ever since.

Cheers,
Gary

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and
give glory to your Father who is in heaven." Matthew 5:16
----- Original Message -----
From: "John R. Troy" <john.r.troy@gmail.com>
To: "Gary Gygax" <ggygax@genevaonline.com>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: CZ Finish

That's really weird.

I was leery of Rob because Necromancer games was really upset about
the Maze of Zayne fiaso and the City of Brass thing. But I thought he
was happy with working with TLG. Seems to be a personal problem though
because his asking his name be removed from everything, etc. It
definately is unprofessional to do that. The reason I don't volunteer
for heavy projects is because I know I don't have the time.

If it's a money issue, I could understand if Rob was disappointed with
sales, but I would think that would have been discussed earlier--he
had to know going in that even with the Gygax name and the "legend of
the castle", the sales would be less than a full-scaled D&D Greyhawk
branded release backed by WoTC and all their market/advertising power.
Based on what else I read, I doubt Rob would even want to write for a
d20 system, unless he's changed his mind, but that conflicts with his
statement about "old school" presentation, etc. Either that, or he's
trying to go as "pure profit" by cutting out as many middlemen as he
can.

Just don't let it get to your physical and mental health--CZ isn't
more important than that. Regardless of anything, Yggsburg is a great
"mini-setting" and it was worth it even for that.

At work now--let me think things through and respond later.

To provide context on what might have set Rob off, this thread in Dragonsfoot is what Rob is referencing. Dragonsfoot removed the "B.S." word Gary used, but that apparently is what Rob is referencing. (And apparently ENWorld has an automatic filter for it, which I didn't realize.

READ 1st: Castle & Crusade Society Tribute Chainmail Gam - Dragonsfoot

So, it's a little more complex than the podcast makes out. I mean, if Rob left Castle Zagyg over the Dragonsfoot argument, then at the very least both parties were petty.

 

[David Howery]

there were some pretty good hints even back in early 1E days that EGG had some issues... some of his remarks in Dragon didn't reflect well on him. Not to mention, there were also indications that he wasn't a real businessman either. Lots of people overlooked all that because he was undeniably creative and wrote a lot of the stuff that fascinated us all back in the day.
As for Williams.... GW makes it pretty clear that her 'ambush' of EGG happened mainly because she realized full well that EGG wasn't much of a business leader, and that TSR wouldn't survive long with him in charge. In the end, she proved to be not much of a business leader either, but TSR did run another decade and produced a lot more stuff that was great fun to read and play.
So neither was a saint or a demon, just people who probably shouldn't have been running TSR, but hey, it was a new type of business and nobody really knew much about it for a while...

 

[Parmandur]

I would say while 1 is true, 2 is false, as he showed a lot of kindness in his later years. People don't remember how he was here in the decade he was alive, and I know he showed many people some levels of kindness.


That one statement however doesn't really provide all the context. Gary shared with me the exchange when it happened, so here's the entire context.





To provide context on what might have set Rob off, this thread in Dragonsfoot is what Rob is referencing. Dragonsfoot removed the "B.S." word Gary used, but that apparently is what Rob is referencing. (And apparently ENWorld has an automatic filter for it, which I didn't realize.

READ 1st: Castle & Crusade Society Tribute Chainmail Gam - Dragonsfoot

So, it's a little more complex than the podcast makes out. I mean, if Rob left Castle Zagyg over the Dragonsfoot argument, then at the very least both parties were petty.

I would not say that Gary Gygax was a "bad person"...but he wasn't always very nice.

 

[TiQuinn]

I would say while 1 is true, 2 is false, as he showed a lot of kindness in his later years. People don't remember how he was here in the decade he was alive, and I know he showed many people some levels of kindness.


That one statement however doesn't really provide all the context. Gary shared with me the exchange when it happened, so here's the entire context.





To provide context on what might have set Rob off, this thread in Dragonsfoot is what Rob is referencing. Dragonsfoot removed the "B.S." word Gary used, but that apparently is what Rob is referencing. (And apparently ENWorld has an automatic filter for it, which I didn't realize.

READ 1st: Castle & Crusade Society Tribute Chainmail Gam - Dragonsfoot

So, it's a little more complex than the podcast makes out. I mean, if Rob left Castle Zagyg over the Dragonsfoot argument, then at the very least both parties were petty.

That thread underscores a lot of what I remember about Gygax - a direct willingness to air his laundry in public where he had the upper hand - on a message board filled with his fans.

 

[MockingBird]

Listening to the Podcast on the to and from work. How has this story not been made into a movie yet?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Listening to the Podcast on the to and from work. How has this story not been made into a movie yet?

I would say the fact that Jon Hamm is doing a podcast of the Mazes & Monsters "true" story shows that Hollywood is getting there.

 

[Mr. Lahey]

I would say while 1 is true, 2 is false, as he showed a lot of kindness in his later years. People don't remember how he was here in the decade he was alive, and I know he showed many people some levels of kindness.

Certainly very few if any people are irredeemably bad, and people also can mellow out in their later years. He definitely did kind things for people. My issue, though, is what seems to have happened whenever he felt someone was not squarely on his side- when things got difficult he would seemingly show another side.