Need confirmation on number of AoOs for ranged touch spells

[pawsplay]

And generates an AoO because it is an Attack (Ranged) (pg 8)

No, this part is incorrect. That refers to a specific standard action. And if you follow the page reference from p8 to p16 you will see that a ray does not fall under Ranged Attack at all; that section treats touch attacks separately.

 

[irdeggman]

No, this part is incorrect. That refers to a specific standard action. And if you follow the page reference from p8 to p16 you will see that a ray does not fall under Ranged Attack at all; that section treats touch attacks separately.

But if you go to pg 132 and 143 you will see that it specifically is treated as a ranged weapon and attack (ranged) must be with a ranged (or thrown weapon) and an attack with same is a ranged attack.

As I said the specific rule on spells trumps the generic rule on touch attacks (noting of course that touch attacks are not mentioned on the table on pg 8 at all).

Preponderance of evidence and specific rule trumps generic one.

 

[pawsplay]

But if you go to pg 132 and 143 you will see that it specifically is treated as a ranged weapon and attack (ranged) must be with a ranged (or thrown weapon) and an attack with same is a ranged attack.

Let's say A is a ranged attack, B is a ranged touch, and C is an attack with a ranged weapon. C is an A, and B is an A. That does not mean B is a C.

Example: Sneak attacks cause extra damage to foes who cannot defend themselves. Flat-footed characters lose their Dex bonus to defend themselves and can be sneak attacked. Flanked characters also can be sneak attacked. Therefore, they must be unable to defend themselves. Invalid conclusion: characters who are flanked lose their Dex bonus to AC.

If that sounds far-fetched, there was a virtually identical thread recently about being prone.

I know of no argument about an AoO for spells based on "attacking with a ranged weapon" that does not follow this same structure.

 

[irdeggman]

Let's say A is a ranged attack, B is a ranged touch, and C is an attack with a ranged weapon. C is an A, and B is an A. That does not mean B is a C.

All ranged attacked must be made with a ranged (or thrown) weapon - see my earlier PHB and RC references. Essentially they are the same thing since also all attacks with ranged (or thrown) weapons are ranged attacks.

Example: Sneak attacks cause extra damage to foes who cannot defend themselves. Flat-footed characters lose their Dex bonus to defend themselves and can be sneak attacked. Flanked characters also can be sneak attacked. Therefore, they must be unable to defend themselves. Invalid conclusion: characters who are flanked lose their Dex bonus to AC.

If that sounds far-fetched, there was a virtually identical thread recently about being prone.

False premise.

Both this argument and the one in the thread on being prone assumes that the defining statement for when a rogue can make a sneak attack is when an opponent is unable to defend himself effectively. When in fact the definition is for only 2 conditions:

(1) When the opponent is denied a Dex bonus to AC

(2) When the rogue flanks the opponent.

If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.

Now if one looks at the text in Complete Adventurer..

Under Ninja's Sudden Strike (pg 8)

If a ninja cna catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. Whenever a ninja's target is denied a Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), the ninja deals. . .

So since we have 2 definitions of when an opponent is unable to defend himself effectively from an attack.

(1) When they are denied a Dex Bonus to AC or when the attacker flanks the target (from the rogue class ability)

(2) When they are denied a Dex Bonus to AC (from the ninja class ability)

Which is the correct one?

The intro statement on the opponent not being able to effectivel defend themself is the lead in to the specific conditions that the ability applies in relation to each of the two class' abilities and these conditions are different.

 

[irdeggman]

Here are some other class abilities that are interesting when looked at for when you can apply "extra damage".

Complete Adventurer

Daggerspell Mage (pg 34)

Sneak attack - applies when an opponent is:
(1) flat-footed or
(2) flanked or
(3) denied Dex bonus to AC

Note that since it specifies flat-footed and not just when denied Dex bonus that this ability applies to characters with uncanny doge (which allows maintaining Dex bonus to AC even if caught flat-footed - thus negated a rogue's sneak attack ability but not the daggerspell mage's.

Daggerspell shaper (pg 37)

sneak attack -
(1) flanking or
(2) opponent is denied Dex bonus to AC


Dread Pirate (pg 40)

Same as the daggerspell shaper



Ghost faced killer (pg 53)

Sudden strike - same defintion as the ninja

Unable to defend themself effectively. .
(1) denied Dex bonus to AC