Need Guidance on running a large group

Assuming you HAVE to run this many players.

Delegate - someone else has to run initiative, declare who's up and who's on deck.

Timing- you're going to have to give people a time limit on their turn, and it's going to have to be short - I'd suggest 30 seconds. Exceed the limit lose the rest of your turn. Another person to monitor this for you.

DM efficiency - Make your turns as efficient as possible, when other players are rolling, roll at the same time. Better yet have some rolls made and written down before the session even begins-use in order of your list.
This also means to use monsters that make combat faster (ie-no huge HP, huge defense monstrosities, minimal healing monsters-preferably none).

Power cards - a must.

A good battlemat helps - large and being able to write on it are very useful and allow easy tracking of effects, zones, etc.

As for accessories - miniatures will help, but I'd suggest using tokens with
numbers on them instead for the monsters - this makes it easy to track which goblin has taken damage and for the players to declare their attacks (I'll attack goblin 7). Efficiency is more important here than good looking mini's for generic foes.

House rules - I'd advise not allowing reference of books except at the end of sessions (when you'll handle level ups).
I'd also advise either reducing monster Hp & increasing damage or using average damage for player at will abilities (no adding numbers - which is really slow for some people, reduces die rolls).

My advice is geared to combat as this is what the slowest portion of the game is. I would advise a timer on RP encounters too, so everyone gets a chance to speak though.
 

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I've been in a group with 10 players before, albeit under a different edition, but the problem I would point out has more to do with players than game systems.

Firstly, it was nearly total chaos at pretty much all times. The DM nor the group were particularly distraction-prone, but anything outside of the turn-based combat structure was, at best, a contest to see who could talk over everyone else. The loudest voices got heard, everyone else was drowned out in the din. Mind you, with mature, courteous players, this should not be a problem, but in my case, we were young, mostly all friends, and a mix of personality types. Obviously, the more competitive types usually talked the loudest also.

Secondly, what everyone has said about party splitting holds absolutely true. You must keep a tight rein on players who might wander off to "do their own thing." In fact, I strongly suggest that you don't allow this at all. Given your short sessions, keeping all non-game elements to a minimum is probably best. Large groups are incredibly difficult in story-driven games. Unless, like others have suggested, you split this into two groups.

In our current group, we have 5 players (fairly role-balanced party, and usually one or more NPCs (story reasons), and combats still tend to drag at times. Even with numbers like this we've had combats that sound straghtforward enough take upwards of 4 hours. Though, I will point out that this group is fairly prone to lengthy and frequent distraction.

As others have suggested, with a group this large, discipline is key. Don't put up with a lot of table talk, or you'll never get anything done. I would suggest paper sheets and power cards only; smartphones and laptops will inevitably lead to further distraction. YMMV, but this has been my experience.
 

Thank you all for the advice!

If you expected 4-5 and got 11, my guess is that you'll be back down to 5-6 after a month or two.

Yeah, prior experience tells me this is pretty likely. I think I will hold out a bit and see if natural attrition kicks in.

In the meantime, I am going to go with what several have suggested and:

1) Double monster damage
2) Use a lot of minions
3) Halve the HP of non-minions.

That should make fights shorter and nastier. I am also considering resurrecting the old morale check rules so that minions flee when it seems defeat is likely. Depending on the species, I might even have a failed morale check cause minions to occasionally turn on their allies (Hey, if we help them kill that tyrant of a leader we live under, maybe they'll spare us and we will be free!). Sounds like somehing a goblin or kobold would do.

My friends who were absent already play with me in another regular game, so I am warding them off of this one until such time as the group gets small enough allow for new players.

Again, I appreciate the great input. If anyone has any other ideas, please share.
 

Just one word of warning - under no circumstances should you use a Solo as a lone opponent against an oversized party. It's a bad idea to use a truly solo Solo against any group, but there are circumstances where it can work. These circumstances vanish as the party gets larger. There are just too many ways for a large group of characters to totally shut down a single opponent.
 

Just one word of warning - under no circumstances should you use a Solo as a lone opponent against an oversized party. It's a bad idea to use a truly solo Solo against any group, but there are circumstances where it can work. These circumstances vanish as the party gets larger. There are just too many ways for a large group of characters to totally shut down a single opponent.

Thanks!

Do you think a good alternative (such as with a dragon) would be to retool it as a brute and make sure it has some lackeys fight alongside it?
 

Do you think a good alternative (such as with a dragon) would be to retool it as a brute and make sure it has some lackeys fight alongside it?

Well, you probably don't need to retool a solo at all--just add supporting troops. Instead of 9 PCs on one solo dragon, you send them up against a dragon + 4 regular creatures, or maybe a dragon plus 6 regular creatures. You can also try things like 9 PCs on 2 solos, but that will in many ways be like a normal 5 PCs on 1 solo fight--it can work, but the solo really needs to be up to snuff.
 

While I agree, splitting the group may be done, playing in large groups can work as well. When you do encounter design, you have to remember that elites, solos, and minions are you friends. 11 standard monsters gets to be way to much to handle. Two to three solos can be a fun higher level challenge for 10 characters. And so can five elites. Minions make great filler because they require no book keeping, just make sure they have some sort of a respawn mechanism because 10 players will mow through them pretty quickly.

Monster & encounter design has to focus on simplicity. Use monsters with only 2 or 3 simple but flavorful powers. Monsters with good basic attacks you can spam, powerful encounter bursts or multi-attack powers, and auto damage auras all make good choices. This can get boring, so try and give each encounter a unique spin with terrain, location, puzzles, skill check or the like to tie your players up with tactical planning between turns. It gives players a chance to do something interesting while waiting.

Then just pawn off some of your duties on the players. Make one track initiative and enforce turn time limits, let one manage skill checks or terrain challenges, and let one run the minion mob. That allows you to focus on rules adjudication and monster turns.

It can be hard, but it can also be fun. Just work hard to keep the action flow going (hopefully player taskmaster will help with this), and make sure people don't get left out of the spotlight.

Oh, also, make sure you have effective space for it. It's really hard to run a 10 person encounter without a good map, miniatures, and room for everyone to keep their stuff.
 

I routinely run with 7+, often as many as 10 or 11, and have for over 20 years. There are differences in running this way, but the main reason it doesn't work for many people is that they don't have much practice doing it. People try it once or twice, doing everything the same way they did with 4-6, and of course it doesn't work.

So first thing, ignore any advice from people telling you that it cannot work. They don't know what they are talking about. Instead, take any such advice as, "it didn't work for me, and you might not be willing to do what it takes to work for you," which has the considerable benefits of being both true and more useful advice. :) Everyone has a number of players with which they are most comfortable, and a DMing style that they are willing to bend or not bend to stay comfortable. Find where you are. (As it happens, I've run so long with a big group, I'm not really comfortable running with less than five any longer. I can do it, but I don't enjoy it very much.)

With that said, here is my concrete advice for making it work:

1. Most important, the players must help you make this work. If they won't, you'll fail. If they don't know how, they must be willing to learn. If individuals aren't willing to learn how, then you'll have to either drop them or split them into a smaller group. Nothing that comes later will matter if you have half the group insisting on playing like there are 4 players at the table.

2. "Attention Fatigue" is your enemy, for you and the players. Even two hours of juggling 8-10 helpful players, will leave you drained, if you don't have some kind of break. Meanwhile, the players all want your attention, and are tired of paying attention to someone else while they are out of the action. But you don't want the game to stop, and you'd like the "breaks" to flow naturally. One of the best ways for you to get a break without stopping the game is to get the players to roleplay with each other.

Consider the usual, "split up in town and research the rumors at the taverns, town hall, library, etc." tactic. You can ban the split. Or you can have 10 people run off in 10 different locations, and drive yourself crazy. (And them with you, because that is splitting the "fun" 10 ways into tiny slices.) Or you can just flat tell the players (OOC) that to make this work, you'll have 2-3 scenes of gathering information roleplayed, and you want a fairly even distribution of characters per scene. Then, you've only split the fun 2 to 3 ways. But you don't stop there. The mage and the cleric decide to go to the library. The ranger, having nothing better to do, helpfully decides to round out that group, and keep watch as the "strong, silent" type. At the library are two NPCs. If you saw it coming, you have a small handout that says what they know. You give this to two other players, and tell them to roleplay the scene. (If you need to wing it, you pull them aside and give them the information, quickly.) Bingo, you've got half the group involved in the "personal" stuff.

Now, at first you probably want the rest of the group watching. Don't worry that they get information they wouldn't have yet. You can't be a stickler about that kind of thing. Besides, for everything they learn OOC this way, you'll have another thing that confuses them simply because of the communicating issues with a group this size. It evens out. So if one of your other players handling an NPC screws up the information delivery, but knows the answer, and this leads to a misunderstanding ... that's a feature, not a bug. ;) By the same token, don't pay that much attention to what is going on. This is your chance to rest for a bit, or mentally get ready for the next scene (or more likely, a combination). When you really get cooking with this style, you don't even wait. You just take the other five players and go another scene with them while the first sub group does their scene without you. And don't go into another room if you do this. The goal isn't to hide information but to expedite play. If your second scene at the other end of the table gets derailed for a few minutes because the first scene gets really interesting to the whole table--hooray, the whole table is entertained.

Note that none of this says, "drag it out." When you have 4 players, the other three don't want to sit for an hour while the mage talks solo at the library. Why would half the group want to sit for an hour while the other half does the same thing?

3. Prepare encounters as if you had two separate, more usual sized groups. Do this explicity. This is an extension of the, "don't use a single, tough solo" advice mentioned by others. You should also do this with skill challenges, and in fact most elements (e.g. treasure). Not only does this make it easier on you to prepare using the standard rules, it covers you if a bunch of players don't make it one session. You can just run with half of the prepared material, saving the rest for later.

Note that you can get really clever with any system to make this easy (instead of double prep), and 4E is especially nice in this regard, with working encounter budgets and encouragement for reskinning.

For example, let's say that I have 3 kobold encounters planned, and might need 2-3 more, depending up what the players do. Do you need 12 encounters planned, #1 and #2 together, then #3 and #4 together, etc? No, you need about 4-5 different standard ones! Because combinations are more varied than individual pieces. Your set encounters are maybe standard pieces #1 + #2, #1 + #3, #2 + #4. Plenty of variety. If the players surprise you, and you need another, just grab #1 + #4, or whatever appeals, reskin if desired, and go. And note that it is perfectly fine if one of your "different" encounters is a solo (or mostly solo). You are not going to use it by itself, unless half the group doesn't show. This also provides you an easy way to really rachet things up with waves of monsters. You set things up so that if the players are exceptionally clever, they get to steamroll your encounter A (#1 +#2) in separate pieces, if they are average, they get it as written, or if they screw up, they get a #4 pieces added in a few rounds later.

4. If you've got players that are willing and able (or want to be), let them play some of the monsters in big combats. You keep the monster leaders, but just hand out the stats for the rest. Some players prefer not to handle the monsters that are directly confronting them, but you can easily get around this by dividing the characters into two squads that tend to act together (or three if this is more natural).

5. Push the players tactically, even more than you would in a normal game (with whatever gradual push or learning curve is appropriate for any beginners in the group, of course.) Especially do this if the players are happy helping with monsters. Because one of 8 characters being temporarily taken out of the action, or even killed, is not the threat to TPK that losing one of 5 characters is. As long as the player can be entertained by something going on in the game, you are good. OTOH, if you do this, make sure the player has a way to get back into the swing easily. (That is, don't make him bring in a new character 2 levels lower, don't make him wait to bring it in, etc. If all the hokey, "we rescue a prisoner that just happens to be your character" story lines bother you too much, you'll have trouble with large groups. You don't have to dwell on it, but you do have to get a viable character into that player's hands ASAP.) Also note that this does not mean that you should use full-blown metagaming tactics from the monsters. Don't have all the monsters focus fire on the mage. You've got at least two normal encounters' worth of monsters on the table.

There are two other, related reasons why you want this extreme push. First chaos multiplies in large groups. Chaos is your friend, because it is the main thing that keeps it exciting for the players. Without chaos, you'll soon find that 8 PCs running like a well-oiled machine versus two normal budget groups or monsters is often a cake walk. All those powers that magnify the power of the group (e.g. I'm looking at you, Tac Warlords) are just the tip of the iceberg. So ideally, you'd like your players to handle their characters with a little friction. If two PCs have a rivalry, and the players can be mature about it, it's ok. The group can survive this.

Second, any rivalry and friction is going to naturally feed back into the players roleplaying with each other. If the warlock and the rogue get into a shouting match (in character) in the middle of the fight, that's good!

6. Reward players that help you do this. Be explicit with the rewards. I don't much like bonus XP, because I like the group to more or less grow as a group, but any reward that works for you is ok. In 4E, I hand out bonus action points for any action that significantly brings in other players into the scene. It could be as simple as the mage turning to the paladin, during a scene with an NPC, and asking (in character), "What you do think?" Or, "What does the Order of the Silver Blade say about that?" Immediate action point for the mage.

Don't worry if not everyone gets these rewards, either. Out of that many people, some will be wall flowers. But you aren't short changing them. On the contrary, you are helping them. You are explicitly saying that players who drag them out on the dance floor get more powers to ... keep doing this. :p

I hope this helps.
 
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Having run a group that started at 7 and grew to 11 over the course of a couple of years, I would say don't do it for the reasons many people have already listed.

One thing I have noticed when groups get large is that sometimes a significant number of your players are just there because a) they are bored, and b) this is what their friends are doing. Those people, as nice as they can be, tend to drag the game down as they aren't really motivated to learn the rules (which slows down gameplay), are only there to be social (rather than socially game) and because the group is so large, you don't have the time or opportunity to really convert them into better players.

I now refuse to run a group of more than 5. It's bad for the group and it's bad for the DM.
 

One thing I have noticed when groups get large is that sometimes a significant number of your players are just there because a) they are bored, and b) this is what their friends are doing. Those people, as nice as they can be, tend to drag the game down as they aren't really motivated to learn the rules (which slows down gameplay), are only there to be social (rather than socially game) and because the group is so large, you don't have the time or opportunity to really convert them into better players.
I actually have this problem with one of my players. Our group is the theoretical 'perfect' size; 5+DM, and one of the players is only there because he has nothing better to do. He constantly drags things down with bad body language, distracting interruptions that are completely out of context, and a general lack of interest with what is going on in the game.

It doesn't matter your group size; this kind of thing is extremely disruptive.
 

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