I'm assuming it'll get decently high in levels, but that post was really helpful. I may wind up surviving a decently long time, which would be nice. Any more advice is always welcome, since we're still in the planning stages. He hasn't determined exactly what to do with the campaign just yet.
Need help building a Cleric (or other spellcaster)
- Thread starter Mirron
- Start date
krupintupple
First Post
this damned board just at a well thought out and fairly lengthy post, so i'll try to summarise it here:
a druid, wild shaped into an eagle, 140 feet above the battle field using call lightning. your spells go 150 feet and anyone trying to spot you will have a -14 on said check. then try to use a summon nature's ally III to call up 1d3 air elementals to push and harass the foes into a spike growth that you also cast. now they're taking 1d4 damage per 5 feet travelled and could possibly have their movement screwed.
i would wager that most people capable of hitting you at 140 feet will have a hard time making that -14 spot check.
a druid, wild shaped into an eagle, 140 feet above the battle field using call lightning. your spells go 150 feet and anyone trying to spot you will have a -14 on said check. then try to use a summon nature's ally III to call up 1d3 air elementals to push and harass the foes into a spike growth that you also cast. now they're taking 1d4 damage per 5 feet travelled and could possibly have their movement screwed.
i would wager that most people capable of hitting you at 140 feet will have a hard time making that -14 spot check.
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The writers of that Power Gamer's guide I linked to would seem to have a different opinion- it only uses core options, and recommends the specialist mage over the generalist.
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
Specialization is nice at early levels when you're spell-starved. But it still doesn't put you on par with the Fighter anyway. Down the road, you'll have more spells than you can even cast most days, and by then the loss of access of two whole schools of magic (divination has very little to offer in core only unless going fighter/mage and mostly using True Strike, again IMHO) really hurts. Especially since it cuts you out of stocking up on cheap wands and scrolls of low level spells from those schools to give you more varied spell power on any given day. In supplements, they introduced more options to make specialization tempting, but I'm sticking with what I said for a core game.
On Druids: Yes, once you can get Wildshape at 5 (I'd say 6, in fact, both for having a spare use/day and the ability to cast while changed), things are really awesome. Level 8 opens up large animals and I'd call it the "other" watershed level for a Druid. But getting there is a pain, I've done it. Especially if you want to optimize towards those later levels. Even if you don't, your cruddy proficiencies, +0 BAB, and pretty poor low level spell selection means any early Druid is actually pretty bland and weak. In the right environment, Entangle can turn that all around. But you can't depend on fighting in the right terrain. I've found at 1st level, the animal companion is actually better than the Druid. My last level 1 Druid, I considered my Riding Dog my actual character, since he could actually do stuff in combat.
Even with 2 HD, he still had lower attack, damage, and AC than the party Fighter (about same hp; less feats and combat options), but he was above average in a fight, and his Trip ability was handy.
If you do make a Druid, I reccommend Riding Dog as your initial companion if possible, so long as the DM lets them learn the Trip ability their entry says they can be trained to learn. Otherwise, get a wolf. They're nearly as good.
Do you have any preference for your character? Any of the 4 can be very strong eventually. Sorcerers maybe not as much as the prepared casters, but powerful enough still. It's really hard to help you with a build when you're no being specific at all in what you'd like to play.
On Druids: Yes, once you can get Wildshape at 5 (I'd say 6, in fact, both for having a spare use/day and the ability to cast while changed), things are really awesome. Level 8 opens up large animals and I'd call it the "other" watershed level for a Druid. But getting there is a pain, I've done it. Especially if you want to optimize towards those later levels. Even if you don't, your cruddy proficiencies, +0 BAB, and pretty poor low level spell selection means any early Druid is actually pretty bland and weak. In the right environment, Entangle can turn that all around. But you can't depend on fighting in the right terrain. I've found at 1st level, the animal companion is actually better than the Druid. My last level 1 Druid, I considered my Riding Dog my actual character, since he could actually do stuff in combat.
Even with 2 HD, he still had lower attack, damage, and AC than the party Fighter (about same hp; less feats and combat options), but he was above average in a fight, and his Trip ability was handy.If you do make a Druid, I reccommend Riding Dog as your initial companion if possible, so long as the DM lets them learn the Trip ability their entry says they can be trained to learn. Otherwise, get a wolf. They're nearly as good.
Do you have any preference for your character? Any of the 4 can be very strong eventually. Sorcerers maybe not as much as the prepared casters, but powerful enough still. It's really hard to help you with a build when you're no being specific at all in what you'd like to play.
Thanee
First Post
Wizards get to 2nd-level spells at 3rd level, though.
And really, the simple weapon proficiency is pretty much not worth to be mentioned. Couldn't they give the poor sorcerer some extra skill points instead (those would at least be useful)!?
Even core-only, specialists are superior to generalists throughout all levels. The extra spell slots are just too valuable.
The cost is basically non-existant. There are enough spells in the remaining schools left, you really do not need all of them.
Bye
Thanee
As things stand now, I'm just interested in playing a spellcaster. He hasn't made any overt restrictions (although he encourages religious (I.E. Cleric/Paladin), but I talked to him, and he said one of the other 3 could be worked in.
Cleric would probably be best, as I don't need to worry about him changing his mind, but I could probably pull off Druid with ease as well.
Cleric would probably be best, as I don't need to worry about him changing his mind, but I could probably pull off Druid with ease as well.
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
I find simple weapon proficiency useful at level 1 for the sorcerer. A longspear means you have an AoO against most things trying to get into melee with you, and assuming str 10, 1d8 damage is actually enough to reliably kill alot of the things you might encounter. The deterrant factor alone might keep some enemies from moving to you.
Specialization: Fine, I'll stop arguing against it. But I never thought you needed every spell. More that each school has at least a few really good spells that are very painful to permanently give up in any form. Even the "weak" evocation has contingency. Oh well.
Human Cleric 1
Spells per day:
Level 0, 3/day: Detect Magic, Light, Create Water
Level 1, 3/day*: Pick 2 of Bless, Command, Divine Favor, and Inflict Light Wounds
*Including domain spell and bonus slot for high wisdom
Note: Never prepare cure spells. You can always spontaneously convert other spells to them anyway.
Domains: Largely depends on what deity you worship if one. You probably want to do War Domain and focus on buffing yourself for melee. You use the deity's favored weapon, or the alignment's. The longsword (Lawful alignment, or certain gods) is a solid choice. If you're not worshipping a god...pick whatever strong domain you can justify being related to War and/or fitting for your alignment. Good domains: Animal (mostly for Shapechange way later), Magic (to use arcane magic items), Strength (mediocre but aids in melee self-buffing), Sun (if you think you'll fight undead a lot), Travel (Fly and other useful spells AND good granted power), or Trickery (lots of good arcane spell additions).
Feats: You're getting Weapon Focus for free from War domain. Skill Focus (Concentration) is handy since you'll be casting in danger a lot. Combat Casting gives a +4 instead of +3, but only for casting defensively, so avoid that one. Improved Initiative and Blind-Fight are never awful if you have nothing better. The only metamagic feats really useful to clerics IMO are Extend and Quicken. The former is cheap as a rod, the latter you couldn't use for a long time anyway, so it's not worth getting yet. Neither is terribly important to have. Echew Materials might be more useful to you. Turning isn't likely to work against anything actually dangerous, so don't bother with Improved or Extra Turning unless in an undead-heavy game. Scribe Scroll is actually very handy to make some back up spells during downtime. A level 1 spell scroll if made at CL 1 costs 12.5 gp and only 1 xp.
I'll recommend Scribe Scroll, Skill Focus (Concentration), and your bonus Martial Weapon Prof. and Weapon Focus feats. If you don't expect downtime, replace scribe scroll with Improved Initiative.
Gear:
Your deity's favored weapon
The best armor you can afford (breastplate and even chain shirt is likely too much. Scale mail will work, or studded leather)
A heavy shield (or light, if your DM's strict about the very limited amount you can hold in a hand w/ a heavy shield)
Holy Symbol (wood)
Spell component pouch
other necessities
If possible, save some money for scrolls. They're dirt cheap. The party should pitch in for scrolls of cure light wounds for you to heal them with. (If they protest, tell them, "ok. pay 50 gp a pop for potions to drink on your own action, then.") As for other scrolls at CL 1? Obscuring Mist is helpful at times. Divine Favor even at CL 1 lasts 1 min. As written, a modest 25 gp CL 1 scroll of Protection From Evil/Chaos/Law/Whatever's your bag actually temporarily blocks charm and compulsion spells from affecting the target, even if they're already in effect!
Specialization: Fine, I'll stop arguing against it. But I never thought you needed every spell. More that each school has at least a few really good spells that are very painful to permanently give up in any form. Even the "weak" evocation has contingency. Oh well.
Human Cleric 1
Spells per day:
Level 0, 3/day: Detect Magic, Light, Create Water
Level 1, 3/day*: Pick 2 of Bless, Command, Divine Favor, and Inflict Light Wounds
*Including domain spell and bonus slot for high wisdom
Note: Never prepare cure spells. You can always spontaneously convert other spells to them anyway.
Domains: Largely depends on what deity you worship if one. You probably want to do War Domain and focus on buffing yourself for melee. You use the deity's favored weapon, or the alignment's. The longsword (Lawful alignment, or certain gods) is a solid choice. If you're not worshipping a god...pick whatever strong domain you can justify being related to War and/or fitting for your alignment. Good domains: Animal (mostly for Shapechange way later), Magic (to use arcane magic items), Strength (mediocre but aids in melee self-buffing), Sun (if you think you'll fight undead a lot), Travel (Fly and other useful spells AND good granted power), or Trickery (lots of good arcane spell additions).
Feats: You're getting Weapon Focus for free from War domain. Skill Focus (Concentration) is handy since you'll be casting in danger a lot. Combat Casting gives a +4 instead of +3, but only for casting defensively, so avoid that one. Improved Initiative and Blind-Fight are never awful if you have nothing better. The only metamagic feats really useful to clerics IMO are Extend and Quicken. The former is cheap as a rod, the latter you couldn't use for a long time anyway, so it's not worth getting yet. Neither is terribly important to have. Echew Materials might be more useful to you. Turning isn't likely to work against anything actually dangerous, so don't bother with Improved or Extra Turning unless in an undead-heavy game. Scribe Scroll is actually very handy to make some back up spells during downtime. A level 1 spell scroll if made at CL 1 costs 12.5 gp and only 1 xp.
I'll recommend Scribe Scroll, Skill Focus (Concentration), and your bonus Martial Weapon Prof. and Weapon Focus feats. If you don't expect downtime, replace scribe scroll with Improved Initiative.
Gear:
Your deity's favored weapon
The best armor you can afford (breastplate and even chain shirt is likely too much. Scale mail will work, or studded leather)
A heavy shield (or light, if your DM's strict about the very limited amount you can hold in a hand w/ a heavy shield)
Holy Symbol (wood)
Spell component pouch
other necessities
If possible, save some money for scrolls. They're dirt cheap. The party should pitch in for scrolls of cure light wounds for you to heal them with. (If they protest, tell them, "ok. pay 50 gp a pop for potions to drink on your own action, then.") As for other scrolls at CL 1? Obscuring Mist is helpful at times. Divine Favor even at CL 1 lasts 1 min. As written, a modest 25 gp CL 1 scroll of Protection From Evil/Chaos/Law/Whatever's your bag actually temporarily blocks charm and compulsion spells from affecting the target, even if they're already in effect!
The DM said that any Domain combination is allowed. He said Healing and Sun would make sense, but I think he's trying to keep the god a secret (we worship the 'one' god, so revealing Domains would reveal more about him/her), so he lets any Domains be allowed.
Hmm... seems a lot like what I was thinking. Just need a bit more time to be sure on what I want, and make sure I can do most things.
Hmm... seems a lot like what I was thinking. Just need a bit more time to be sure on what I want, and make sure I can do most things.
Dandu
First Post
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2180.0This is a sorcerer guide you should look into.
I know you are thinking on a cleric, but I thought I'd send some additional materials your way.
I know you are thinking on a cleric, but I thought I'd send some additional materials your way.
