Need help with custom archetype.

[TremorFang]

I am in the process of creating an archetype for either the rogue or the fighter. I am trying to make it the equivalent to the comic book archers such as hawkeye or green arrow. Very much, focused on trick and utility shots, such as ricocheting an arrow off of a shield into an opposing character around the corner. Or moving a disarmed sword backwards along the ground with an arrow away from them.

Below I have just a quick sketchy write up, and I am not very experienced in creating archetypes so the wording and balance are most likely off. The write up is only for the rogue thus far, although fighter may be a better choice simply because they have easier access to archery feats.

Bowman [Rogue Version]

The bowman enjoys the meeting the challenge of making difficult trick shots. Whether it be ricocheting an arrow off of a shield into a hapless soldier or firing off two arrows at the same time and hitting both marks, the bowman eagerly awaits any challenge with excitement.

Picking Shots (EX):
At 1st level the bowman learns when and where to shoot an arrow. A bowman may add their Dexterity bonus to their damage instead of their Strength bonus when using a bow or crossbow weapon.

This ability replaces Trap finding.

Trick Shooting (EX):
At 2nd level the bowman may perform all of the following trick shots. The bowman must declare the trick shot before shooting.

Ricochet – The bowman may only ricochet an arrow against either smooth stone or steel surfaces in an attempt to hit a target within range. The bowman takes a -5 penalty to hit when attempting to hit a target through a ricochet.
Scoot Unattended Object – The bowman may make an attack roll against a tiny or smaller unattended object within range. A Tiny unattended object has an AC of 5, a Diminutive unattended object has an AC of 7, and a Fine unattended object has an AC of 11. On a hit, the bowman does not damage the object with the shot, but can move it up to 15 feet farther away from the shot’s origin. On a miss, they damage the object normally.
Double Shot – The bowman may make one attack role against 2 separate targets in front of the bowman that are within range. The bowman takes -5 to this attack role.

This ability replaces the 2nd-level rogue talent.

Utility Shooting (EX):
At 3rd level the bowman may choose one of the following combat maneuvers or actions.

Sunder – He can perform this action with a bow against any target within 30 feet, with a –4 penalty to his CMB.

Disarm – He can perform this action with a bow against any target within 30 feet, with a –4 penalty to his CMB.

Knock Prone – He can perform this action with a bow against any target within 30 feet, with a -4 penalty. If successful the target is knocked prone.

Knock Back – He can perform this action with a bow against any living target within 30 feet, with a -4 penalty. If successful the target is moved backwards 5 feet.

Slow Movement – He can perform this action with a bow against any living target within 30 feet. If successful the target is slowed to half their speed until your next round.

This ability replaces Trap Sense.

Some of this was taken from the gunslinger and their utility shots as well as a bit from the archer fighter archetype. I remember hearing about trick shots for archers such as knock prone and such, but I don't know where that is from and I wanted to present that in this archetype.

So what do you guys think? Any help on balancing, fixing or adding some fun things. Like somehow being able to alter the flight path of a missed arrow shot with another arrow. (probably just flavored re-roll thing.)

Also, how would I make this work for the fighter. It would seem they would get more benefits minus of course the other fighter abilities to balance it out. Mix it with the archer perhaps?

Again any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Systole]

I'm kind of drunk at the moment, but your 1st level ability is waaay too strong. It's just begging for a 1-level dip from every single ranged character everywhere. I think it would be a good 7th level ability, but 1st level .... no. And especially not for replacing Trapfinding, which is seriously crap.

 

[TremorFang]

I see where you were coming from. I was just trying to give archers damage that they tend to lack. I don't mind moving it back though. What rogue ability should I replace it with, and what should I replace the 1st ability with?

Thanks for the input.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I think part of the problem with Rogue is they lack many good class features to swap without the new result seeming "more powerful." Poor Ninja suffered for the same reason, even though it still was a very weak class, it was "better than rogue."

Picking Shots (EX):
At 1st level the bowman learns when and where to shoot an arrow. A bowman may add their Dexterity bonus to their damage instead of their Strength bonus when using a bow or crossbow weapon.

This ability replaces Trap finding.

Ok, aside from being too good for level 1, just so I understand this correctly:
1) This does absolutely nothing for crossbows, since they do not add str bonus (OR penalty, for that matter) to damage.
2) A bow needs the equivalent strength rating in order to get X amount of dex bonus to damage.

Trick Shooting (EX):
At 2nd level the bowman may perform all of the following trick shots. The bowman must declare the trick shot before shooting.

Ricochet – The bowman may only ricochet an arrow against either smooth stone or steel surfaces in an attempt to hit a target within range. The bowman takes a -5 penalty to hit when attempting to hit a target through a ricochet.
Scoot Unattended Object – The bowman may make an attack roll against a tiny or smaller unattended object within range. A Tiny unattended object has an AC of 5, a Diminutive unattended object has an AC of 7, and a Fine unattended object has an AC of 11. On a hit, the bowman does not damage the object with the shot, but can move it up to 15 feet farther away from the shot’s origin. On a miss, they damage the object normally.
Double Shot – The bowman may make one attack role against 2 separate targets in front of the bowman that are within range. The bowman takes -5 to this attack role.

This ability replaces the 2nd-level rogue talent.

What is the benefit of Ricochet? Cover bonus is usually only +4, so this is patently worse for ignoring that. You still would need to see the target to shoot, so can't really use it to shoot around corners and the like... Also, would the "attack" count as originating off the ricochet point in regards to its ultimate target, or still from the archer's square as normal? This matters both in the case of range increments and whether or not the rogue is considered within range to sneak attack.

Does scooting an object damage it at all?

What action is double shot? If it's not a standard, can you full attack with it (basically doubling your shots for the round by splitting up who they target and taking the -5)? Also, you've made it a single attack roll for two completely separate targets, which is a) very strange and b) extremely unsynergistic with a Rogue, who would only be able to apply his sneak attack damage to one target, though I suppose no matter how you made it, it'd still be a volley attack...

Utility Shooting (EX):
At 3rd level the bowman may choose one of the following combat maneuvers or actions.

Sunder – He can perform this action with a bow against any target within 30 feet, with a –4 penalty to his CMB.

Disarm – He can perform this action with a bow against any target within 30 feet, with a –4 penalty to his CMB.

Knock Prone – He can perform this action with a bow against any target within 30 feet, with a -4 penalty. If successful the target is knocked prone.

Knock Back – He can perform this action with a bow against any living target within 30 feet, with a -4 penalty. If successful the target is moved backwards 5 feet.

Slow Movement – He can perform this action with a bow against any living target within 30 feet. If successful the target is slowed to half their speed until your next round.

This ability replaces Trap Sense.[/I]

How's this work? You pick one option each level you would gain a trap sense bonus? What action is it to use these? Standard? Or do you replace your bow attacks with them? Knock Back should just use the bull rush rules. Slow Movement is too short duration to be very useful. In general, I think medium BAB + penalty of -4 = nearly impossible to ever beat CMD.

Some of this was taken from the gunslinger and their utility shots as well as a bit from the archer fighter archetype. I remember hearing about trick shots for archers such as knock prone and such, but I don't know where that is from and I wanted to present that in this archetype.

The Archer archetype for fighter gets crappy trick shot options. A high level Zen Archer Monk gets sort of cool trick shot options that cost too much ki to be practical. (Due to having improved Precise Shot well before then, the only truly useful trick shot ZAM can use is the one that costs 3 ki, and it's really not that impressive).

 

[TremorFang]

Yay critiquing.

Ok, so as for the first one. To TRY to answer your questions.
1) For the first level ability which will be pulled back, I will take the crossbow out of the picture since it doesn't get the penalty anyway.
2) For the second question here. Not entirely sure what you mean here, just my own inexperience I guess. I've just seen quite a few builds that have 17 STR and 16 DEX, simply because the STR was adding the damage. I figured for someone who would prefer to be more accurate making it the DEX bonus instead of the STR bonus would be useful.

I saw ricochet as being more of a "Keep a meat shield (Fighter) in front of you while still being able to hit an enemy in front of him. Whether Ricocheting between his legs on a hard ground or hitting a shield to your right, it was meant to reach people and objects that would normally be out of your reach. There will be changes on this as from what my DM told me, he would probably make it a DC roll. so I assume DC to see if it deflected the correct way and then another roll to see if it hits.

Successfully scooting an object (according to the gunslinger class) does not damage it, missing however does damage it. I assume it is like just nicking the edge verses completely hitting the object dead on.

I am unsure of which action Double Shot should take. I would suppose whichever is most balanced, what do you think would be fair? As for the single attack roll for 2 targets, the way I was trying to go about it was that A) it is a very difficult shot to make in real life so chances of hitting both targets are more difficult and B) it felt more like one attack on 2 people. I thought that by making it 2 different rolls that it would be abused basically.

3 of the "utility shots" were taken almost word for word from the Archer archetype (though I probably misunderstood to be honest). I will change it to a standard action though. I may change slow movement completely over to a grapple maneuver. As for how many you get to choose, since I took most of the idea from the Archer Archetype and fighters are so feat heavy, I would probably make it maybe 1 of your choice at level 3 and another 1 of your choice ever 3 levels after.

I suppose for the "picked shots" ability, that I could push it to level 7 as suggested before and replace Improved Uncanny Dodge with it. As for what to replace the Trapfinding with, since it is of little use without trap sense; I might just take a note from the sniper class and add Accuracy for level one. Which is:

At 1st level, a sniper (*Cough Bowman Cough*) halves all range increment penalties when making ranged attacks with a bow or crossbow. (minus the crossbow to make it a bow only archetype.)

This ability replaces trapfinding.

Thanks for finding the rough spots for me.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Don't make the utility shots standard actions, they would be absolutely awful then. I just wanted clarification. Or at least, don't make the ones that mimic actions you can replace and attack with (like tripping) standard actions...