Need help with Dragon Tactics

[The Souljourner]

Dominate Monster is a heck of a waste of a 9th level slot, as is shapechange. Timestop and Mass Hold Monster are a heck of a lot better (not a combo.. just better individually). Prot fire huh? Heh, suckers, let's see who can make a DC 31 will save.

And for goodness sake, don't use the crappy breath weapon.... if this dragon is so good at scrying and stuff, he'll know you're protected.... but are you protected from Horrid Wilting or a maximized cone of cold? Thought not.

And any dragon without an instantaneous transport spell should never have lived long enough to grow to great wyrm status. Keep in mind they cast like *sorcerers*, which means if he knows it, he can cast it.

A 19th level caster in the body of a flying juggernaut should not be able to be brought down nearly that easily, and I'm not even a member of BADD... that's just common sense from the CR.

-The Souljourner

 

[FrankTrollman]

as is shapechange.

Are you high?

That's the most broken thing that was ever broken. In its "normal" use - the Dragon simply has it up during combat and at the end of its round of actions it Shapechanges into something small and invisible (possibly buying it a free pass during others' actions, and in any case healing as if resting for an entire day) - then on its next round it transforms back into itself (healing as from another day of resting) and fights as itself. So it can be invisible (or protected in any other way) every other round and rapid heals to the tune of 1 hit point per hit die per round.

On top of that, of the new infinite power loops added in the 3.5 rules, half of them come out of Shapechange.

Here's some fun things to do:

1> Fight like a Dragon, be a Basilisk during enemy rounds - as Gaze Attacks force saves during enemy actions.

2> Abuse the new Shapechange Rules to become a Chronotyrin and gain extra Full Rounds during which you can act - and transform into something else (such as yourself).

3> Abuse the new Shapechange rules to become a powerful Undead creature and create powerful spawn that serve you forever.

There's just no reason for any character or creature to not have Shapechange once they have 9th level spells at all. It's an Epic Spell, and better than most at that.

When choosing 9th level spells, the obvious picks are:

Shapechange
Mind Rape
Any Other Spell

In that order.

-Frank

 

[The Souljourner]

That's all well and good, assuming your DM didn't immediately houserule shapechange right out of epicness.

Being a basilisk during enemy rounds? Are you high? Yeah, losing 25 (!) AC is really going to make up for that DC 13 gaze.

And bringing in broken third party stuff is no excuse (or is Chronotyrin in some WoTC book and I've just missed it?).

Now granted, if shapechange were left as is, and you could just shapechange into yourself every round to gain fast healing 40, I guess that would be worth it. But I think most DMs rule that to only work once per spell, like polymorph. Then it becomes substantially less useful, since there's not a lot more powerful than a great wyrm dragon.

I don't know what mind rape is.. not in the 3.5 PHB at least.

-The Souljourner

 

[Grant_Stoom]

One thing the shapechange afforded him was reducing in size and being free to cast without fear of attacks of opportunity or free to run. Collosal to medium is a big change.

After getting shapechange (even the new errattaed version), I don't want to go anywhere without it. In terms of flexibility for defense, it's pretty hard to beat. Especially with the new rules on damage reduction in 3.5.

 

[Plane Sailing]

One thing the shapechange afforded him was reducing in size and being free to cast without fear of attacks of opportunity or free to run. Collosal to medium is a big change.
.

What, like "casting defensively" won't do that for him with no problems whatsoever? Far more effective and efficient.

 

[Darmanicus]

You cant stop there!!! Did you kick its a** or what!?

 

[The Souljourner]

What, like "casting defensively" won't do that for him with no problems whatsoever? Far more effective and efficient.

But how oh how will it ever pass a concentration check with a mere +53 to its concentration check?

And free to run should definitely be covered under "19th level sorcerer". Dimension door and teleport are both low enough level that there's no way it shouldn't know them.

-The Souljourner

 

[Nail]

You cant stop there!!! Did you kick its a** or what!?

Uhm... Yes?

Web-delay, eh?

*******
Good story, Grant_Stoom! And you, as PCs, did fine.

Yer DM, OTOH, needed to stop by this board for a few pointers on the finer points of higher level play! The dragon seemed to be avoiding any sort of coordinated attack....possibly indicative of a DM unsure of his own tactics. I don't have any particular beef with his spell seclection; after all, YMMV.

Too bad the dragon didn't use the terrain to his advantage...'cause you PCs sure did!

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

I'd agree - y'all as PC's did alright (hmm... this looks defensive, lets camp out here and just be a thorn?) - but the dragon certainly had problems.

Send your DM here or to the BADD website (Bothered About Disposable Dragons).

Lets assume it was just the CR26 monstrosity, vs your APL of 18. That should have taken more than 66% percent of your party resources. From your story, I'd estimate it around 20-30%.

Roughly speaking, the dragon, irregardless of tactics, caused less than half of the damage to your party that it should have been capable of.

Let me put it this way - put yourself, with your 'wizard' mentality, in the shoes of the dragon (so to speak). You know that party of adventurers is coming, they don't even sneak in. What do you do to survive, kill them, and get their loot? And yes, that's the priorities, in that order.

Seriously - send your DM to BADD or here looking for help with dragon tactics - everybody has good ideas and a coupla hundred heads is waaaay better than 1.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Dominate Monster is a heck of a waste of a 9th level slot, as is shapechange. Timestop and Mass Hold Monster are a heck of a lot better (not a combo.. just better individually). Prot fire huh? Heh, suckers, let's see who can make a DC 31 will save.

I respectfully disagree. Dominate Monster and Shapechange are consistent with the mythic abilities of dragons, and therefore in no way a "waste". You are presuming the purpose of the dragon is to kill PCs. Dominate Monster and Shapechange/Polymorph are bread and butter abilities for ~demigod status beings.

That said, I rather wonder about all those 7th and 8th level spells the dragon had -- certainly fair game for hyperoptimization by the DM.

BTW, I do compliment the efforts of the players. Good job, Grant.