Need help with Dragon Tactics

[Victim]

First off, Great Wyrm Red Dragons have 19 caster levels; for spells, it gets to know 2 9th level, 3 each of 6th through 8th level, 4 each of 3rd through 5th level, 5 each of 1st and 2d level, and 9 cantrips.

Why Timestop or Chain Contingency wasn't one of the 9thlevel spells, I honestly don't know. Why harm wasn't in there (cast it, use a NORMAL attack to discharge it, and add 150hp of damage to the blow ...), I also don't know.

Timestop, Prismatic Walls, and a Dimension Lock or two -- lock you in a killing zone

The dragon met you in an area that, apparently, wasn't PREPARED in such a manner as to give it an advantage. I mean, come on; it took the time to lair in an active VOLCANO ... why was there no lava for it to swim through, or knock you into? Why no boulders and such in nets on the cieling, where it's fiery breath could burn the ropes and logs holding them up, dropping the entire mass on your heads?

Bah.


Instead of Fire Giants, frankly, it should have had Iron Golems. Waft a breath attack over them, and it not only damages YOU, it also HEALS the golems!

No offense, but, you should have been lucky to have ONE of your survive, and MAYBE the Dragon was dead. Maybe.

Well, maybe the dragon didn't feel like spending all of its hoard making Iron Golems. It's not as if Iron Golems are particularly cheap or easy to make. On the other hand, to get some Fire Giant lackeys, a red dragon can just bully them around. You might as well ask why the mage didn't have Iron Golems, since he could (in theory) make them as well.

And setting up traps that other people people can easily set off is a great idea. A sorcerer with fire spells is going to be looking for SOMETHING to use them on. But I agree about the lava. A red dragon without lava is like a day without sunshine.

Time Stop, D-Locks, and Prismatic Walls could be used to trap the dragon in a killing zone too. Disjunction could be used to remove the dragon's defenses. The PCs can use every spell the dragon can, and sometimes more effectively (wizard + cleric casting versus sorc). Although sometimes not. A dragon buffing up for melee combat is rather frightful. At around 18th level, PCs can have comparable scores in INT and WIS, so if they work together, the dragon doesn't really have an edge in mental stats. In other words, while optimal PC tactics demand optimal dragon tactics, a more casual group of players probably won't have much fun getting killed by GW's Simulacrums (that really pissed my group off).

Finally, I think this comes up everytime dragon tactics are mentioned; AMF doesn't work for big dragons, even if widened. Big dragon = 80x40. Widened AMF = 30 feet diameter. Sorry, the whole dragon sticks out from the field, so nothing is protected. Well, if the dragon swallows a PC, getting them stuck in an internal AMF, it might be funny.

 

[Spatzimaus]

I've got to agree with these others: that dragon was horrendously underplayed. For a 1000-year-old creature with deity-level intelligence and wisdom he wasn't too bright.

He knew you were coming, but gave you plenty of time to slaughter all of his minions before he faced you alone.

He spread his attacks over the entire group, and wasted some on the Balor's DR. He's over a millenium old, and doesn't know the basics like "my natural attacks won't hurt outsiders"? When dealing with outsiders, throw on a Protection From (alignment) or Banish them, and move on to the next target.

He was using Shapechange. Shapechange is great for most mages, but in his natural form he's already at his strongest, so why bother? Do a Time Stop.

His lair had no traps, no environmental conditions (like lava) that would hurt unprepared or dispelled intruders. No Unhallow with something nasty attached, no Antipathy, nothing.

He has blindsight and can fly, but instead he faces you indoors in a well-lit area.

He uses his single AoO against the first melee type to charge into range instead of waiting for someone to try casting a spell. You've got ridicuously huge reach, so take advantage.

He made no attempt to escape; no Teleport, Plane Shift, Shadow Walk, Ethereal Jaunt, you name it, any one of these could have saved him. Plane Shift is an offensive tool, too; send the fighter to another plane and then see how well the party does.
If he had teleported outside and waited for your Gated creatures to return home (at 1000 XP apiece), and then came back in fully healed, buffed, and ready to go, you'd have been in trouble.

 

[Grant_Stoom]

I agree that things should have been much worse. His other 9th level spell was Dominate Monster. He was using that on the Fire Giant leaders to keep them around.

We asked him why he didn't DD or teleport. He said that he figured the Shapechange would have given him free access to floating through the floor (which he did once) and get away. The one big thing that worked to our advantage was the Con damage. The rogue alone did 16 points of Con in the first 2 rounds. Then he was forced to stay on the defensive. Once he had backed into the small room and had no escape, we just pounded him.

We never even saw the rest of his lair. He came to the entranceway after the gong was rung. We could have gone deeper into the lair after the first few fights but it was actually a pretty good place defensively for us to fight.

There was one iron golem that came out. With a monk hitting with his adamantite fists and the barb and a rogue who could sneak attack constructs (he did get off one of those but I forgot about it writing it up), it didn't last 2 rounds. More would have been the same.

edit - and now we have to race the giants to his horde.

other edit - and he was crushing the barb every turn when he didn't cast.

 

[Grog]

Well, if the dragon swallows a PC, getting them stuck in an internal AMF, it might be funny.

Not funny "ha-ha", though.

 

[Storminator]

<SNIP>

Finally, I think this comes up everytime dragon tactics are mentioned; AMF doesn't work for big dragons, even if widened. Big dragon = 80x40. Widened AMF = 30 feet diameter. Sorry, the whole dragon sticks out from the field, so nothing is protected. Well, if the dragon swallows a PC, getting them stuck in an internal AMF, it might be funny.

This is entirely dependent on how you interpret AMF.

AMF specifically says the field is "centered on you." This does NOT mean that the center of the field and the center of you are the same place. You may not rule so, but it is perfectly consistent with the rules to say the AMF is centered on a dragon's claw (or head or...).

Which is a serious bitch if you face it.

PS

 

[Mephistopheles]

Finally, I think this comes up everytime dragon tactics are mentioned; AMF doesn't work for big dragons, even if widened. Big dragon = 80x40. Widened AMF = 30 feet diameter. Sorry, the whole dragon sticks out from the field, so nothing is protected. Well, if the dragon swallows a PC, getting them stuck in an internal AMF, it might be funny.

Keep in mind that this is a 3.5 thread. The 3.5 change to square 30 ft space for colossal dragons doesn't actually help them with a widened antimagic field (I originally misread it as multiplying radius by 100% when it actually multiplies total area by 100%) so you're still correct in saying this isn't a useful thing for a colossal dragon to do.

However, the impact the change from 3.0's rectangular face to 3.5's square space has on the matter of a dragon using an antimagic field is that a widened antimagic field becomes effective for gargantuan dragons. They now have a square space of 20 ft rather than a rectangular face of 20 ft x 40 ft. This means that a few of the metallic great wyrms can cast widened antimagic field on themselves, and other gargantuan dragons who manage to obtain and use scrolls of widened antimagic field can use them effectively.

AMF specifically says the field is "centered on you." This does NOT mean that the center of the field and the center of you are the same place. You may not rule so, but it is perfectly consistent with the rules to say the AMF is centered on a dragon's claw (or head or...).

Using a completely literal interpretation you may be correct, but if you go with such an interpretation you're begging for abuse. I think that the intent here is that the spell is centered on the center of your space, or one corner of the center square of your space if you have an odd number of squares in your space (spaces of 5 ft, 15 ft, etc).

 

[the Jester]

NICE! You should write your games up as a story hour...

 

[Storminator]

<SNIP>

Using a completely literal interpretation you may be correct, but if you go with such an interpretation you're begging for abuse. I think that the intent here is that the spell is centered on the center of your space, or one corner of the center square of your space if you have an odd number of squares in your space (spaces of 5 ft, 15 ft, etc).

Are you begging for abuse, or allowing a gargantuan creature to use the spell? I think its unreasonable to interpret a spell to make it impossible for some creatures to use.

And really, how much can this ruling be abused? It allows gargantuan creatures to get the same use from the spell as other creatures.

Anyway, I'll stop hijacking this thread.

PS

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

A roomful of lava may or may not have mattered. The PCs had appropriate fire protections, and presumably could have used Fly as well.

The major tactical error on the part of the dragon was not retreating to a place with reinforcements once the PCs had proven they meant business. Given the amount of Con damage suffered, he should have DDoored/Teleported away on round 2. A measly 4 or 5 Fire Giants in the same room would have complicated things for the Wizard and Clerics. Adding in a few summoned monsters, even modest powered ones, would have helped the dragon a lot.

I think Shapechange and Dominate Monster were appropriate choices for the Dragon. The sorceror levels are not just necessarily professional interests, but serve as a catchall for whatever grab bag of abilities seem appropriate for such an animal.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

A roomful of lava may or may not have mattered. The PCs had appropriate fire protections, and presumably could have used Fly as well.

And this is when the greater dispel magic will come in handy.