Need help with math justification.

[Akaiku]

I got a problem, sorta.

I happen to be a somewhat low stated cleric (16 str and wis).

Not all that big deal except for the rest of the party....

2 20 str fighters (tempest and 2 handed fighter)
Preditor Druid
Storm Sorcerer.

I keep running into the problem that me just spamming the non-damaging pacifist powers is the best possible option. Problem is that I don't just have them. I have other ones as well.

What's worse is that my damage compared to pretty much anyone else is miserable. My hit rate is pretty low as well, for melee. Using a 3w daily that adds ongoing 5 on a 2d4 weapon with +3 damage and +6 to hit seems a bit... sad... compared to a fighter using a 1w at will that does 2d8+10 with a +10 to hit.

What's a good way to justify not using astral seal as my standard action when I'm not using a different heal instead? I even have the avenger multiclass feat that lets me OoE someone for an encounter each encounter. And yet it doesn't really.... do anything useful as even if I CRIT, I do less damage then anyone else's average and sometimes less then their minimum. And I'm not helping them hit more often and setting up free healing. Or, using my lazer that grants saves (in the off event that they need a save).

 

[renau1g]

Well, yes your cleric will do less damage than the fighters (they're a striker secondary), not sure what level you are at, but unless it's 21 the fighters should only do 2d6 with a two-handed weapon (which you can just as easily grab with a feat). You would be expected to hit about 10% less or so than your peers, but I'm assuming that you have much better defense scores?

They've specialized heavily in one stat, you're playing a more generalist. 4e combat favours specialists over jack of all trades. Ideally you'd like to have 16 in your main stat before racial modifiers. You also usually try and pick a race that will complement your class to bump your main stat. You don't have to of course, from an RP POV you might prefer a halfing cleric, but you won't be as effective as a fully specialized dragonborn melee cleric, or twinked out elven lazer cleric.

 

[Mengu]

Are you a strength cleric or a wisdom cleric? From what you've told so far, it looks more like an identity crisis cleric. I'd say you can get expertise for better accuracy, but do you get it for weapon or holy symbol? I might recommend dwarven weapon training if you want better melee weapons and damage, but that doesn't help your implement powers in the least. Can you tell us your current power and feat choices? That might help with recommendations.

 

[renau1g]

That's also assuming he's a dwarf (not terribly likely with his stats)...

 

[Akaiku]

Well, yes your cleric will do less damage than the fighters (they're a striker secondary), not sure what level you are at, but unless it's 21 the fighters should only do 2d6 with a two-handed weapon (which you can just as easily grab with a feat). You would be expected to hit about 10% less or so than your peers, but I'm assuming that you have much better defense scores?

They've specialized heavily in one stat, you're playing a more generalist. 4e combat favours specialists over jack of all trades. Ideally you'd like to have 16 in your main stat before racial modifiers. You also usually try and pick a race that will complement your class to bump your main stat. You don't have to of course, from an RP POV you might prefer a halfing cleric, but you won't be as effective as a fully specialized dragonborn melee cleric, or twinked out elven lazer cleric.

It's level 2, actualy. I'm guessing the fighter is using a size-increased hammer of some sort, or brash strike gives a bigger thing.

And I did pick a race that lines up (longtooth shifter), just started with 14's. I have one defense better then many others (will) but really, not quite that big of an advantage at low levels when the "My will def is 16" runs across the artillery that has a +8 or something.

The problem isn't that I'm ineffectual, it's that I'm wasting my time not doing things that are buffs. If I attack, unless it's to take off that last couple of hp, it was better for me to buff someone or debuff the enemy, usually with my non-damaging attack.

Who knows, perhaps it's just striker withdrawal. Playing the buff class without the high cha or int necessary to always do the talking usually doesn't work well. At least I still try and hope for high rolls. Funny how people will go along it with though....

 

[Blackbrrd]

... From what you've told so far, it looks more like an identity crisis cleric. ...

Best comment ever!

Having a character with 16 in a main stat is a bit sad... Personally I like 2x18 or 1x20 as my starting stats for a character - maybe 1x19 if I need multiple stats.

Personally I would go for a wis-based cleric so you can get wis, con and cha. The str-based cleric really asks for a race with a bonus to both str and wis.

 

[renau1g]

This is a PC I play:

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Khellek, level 1
Longtooth Shifter, Cleric
Build: Battle Cleric
Background: Durpar

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 13, Dex 11, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 12.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 13, Dex 11, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 12.


AC: 17 Fort: 14 Reflex: 11 Will: 15
HP: 25 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 6

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +5, Insight +8, Heal +8, Diplomacy +6

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics -1, Arcana, Bluff +1, Dungeoneering +3, Endurance +2, History, Intimidate +1, Nature +3, Perception +3, Stealth -1, Streetwise +1, Thievery -1, Athletics +5

FEATS
Cleric: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Shield Proficiency (Light)

POWERS
Channel Divinity: Turn Undead
Cleric at-will 1: Righteous Brand
Cleric at-will 1: Lance of Faith
Cleric encounter 1: Healing Strike
Cleric daily 1: Avenging Flame

ITEMS
Ritual Book, Adventurer's Kit, Chainmail, Mace, Light Shield
RITUALS
Gentle Repose, Purify Water
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


He's definitely not optimized, but I enjoy him. With my basic attack (Righteous Brand) I do 1d8+4 damage and grant an ally a +4 bonus to attack rolls against the target. I'm definitely not the striker of the group, but my Goliath battle cleric does 1d12+7 on his attacks using the greataxe & goliath greatweapon prowess

 

[FurryFighter]

Are you a strength cleric or a wisdom cleric? From what you've told so far, it looks more like an identity crisis cleric. I'd say you can get expertise for better accuracy, but do you get it for weapon or holy symbol? I might recommend dwarven weapon training if you want better melee weapons and damage, but that doesn't help your implement powers in the least. Can you tell us your current power and feat choices? That might help with recommendations.

except the book tells people to choose one stat as prime, meaning highest, with secondary being second highest, and tertiary being third. what this means is there's usually two to three attributes right behind each other, which is where racial bonuses come on to give you an 18-20 in some main or secondary attribute.

 

[Tony Vargas]

You're playing what's often called a 'balanced' cleric, one with STR & WIS equal, who boosts both STR & WIS equally, so he can cherry pick the best powers, be they WIS 'lazer' powers or STR 'war' powers. For a balanced Cleric, a couple of 16's starting isn't so bad, and, since both your racial bonuses were in those stats, you should even have been able to afford a decent CHA and tertiary stats, like CON or DEX (depending on the feats you might want).

Obviously, characters starting with a 20 will hit more and harder than you do, but it shouldn't be overwhelming. Doing less damage isn't as good as doing more, but it's not /bad/, it's still contributing to dropping whatever it is, and most of your powers have desireable 'riders' as well.

One thing you can do to make your war-cleric melee powers hit better is to take proficiency in a +3 prof weapon, like a Bastard Sword - that'll hit better, and harder.

Also look for powers that have desireable effects whether you hit or not - like Divine Glow, for instance.

And, yes, some of it is just 'striker withdrawl' you are supposed to be doing less damage than the strikers and defenders, and contributing more with healing & buffing.

 

[Akaiku]

You're playing what's often called a 'balanced' cleric, one with STR & WIS equal, who boosts both STR & WIS equally, so he can cherry pick the best powers, be they WIS 'lazer' powers or STR 'war' powers. For a balanced Cleric, a couple of 16's starting isn't so bad, and, since both your racial bonuses were in those stats, you should even have been able to afford a decent CHA and tertiary stats, like CON or DEX (depending on the feats you might want).

Obviously, characters starting with a 20 will hit more and harder than you do, but it shouldn't be overwhelming. Doing less damage isn't as good as doing more, but it's not /bad/, it's still contributing to dropping whatever it is, and most of your powers have desireable 'riders' as well.

Stats I have, if I remember correctly after racial is 16 13 14 10 16 12.
Going to get scale and scale spec at/by 11.

Thing is, the damage my attacks do seems like a minor rider. So when you get an attack like the aformentioned cleric 3w daily, you have a sole rider effect. Wherein astral seal is 6 healing for one ally and a +2 for EVERY ally to hit the foe, plus has bonus accuracy. And it's at will.

It seems 'better' to not actually bother with attempting to damage and JUST pay attention to the rider effects. Oh well, balanced clerics are behind the expertise curve already, taking 3 or 4 paragon feats to make them more survivable and do more damage leaves pretty much incapable of taking fun flavor feats....

(Feats I could take by 11, scale, scale spec, light shield, heavy shield, SWP, focus, expertise in both weapon and holy symbol, Instead of sheild spec, I could get 2 weapon defense along with 2 weapon fighting and a double weapon or something... Though the level 11 feat would probably best be that one that gives me dr 2 whilst shifted... Or I could save feats and get a crusader's weapon, causing me to be a single-weapon-enhancement dependent build and removing most of the options out of stuff drops...)