Need Mecha

[Dannyalcatraz]

Bova's Grand Tour has as main themes:

1. the earliest stages of exploration of the Solar System
2. the discovery of simple life in various locations and long-extinct intelligent life on Mars
3. the taming of the nasty "wild west"/"pirates" frontier of the Asteroid Belt
4. the dawn of nanotech
5. the Greenhouse Effect starting to take a visible toll on Earth
6. the growing, global ultraconservative multifaith religious backlash against discovery of life, nanotech, and space exploration

As a result, you have early scientists, explorers, pilots, thieves, saboteurs, rich guys, politicos, religious types (of various kinds, including scientists)...but not necessarily all in the same place. Most of the "adventurer" types are astronauts of some stripe, meaning they're educated in some scientific/engineering field, not just thrill seekers.

And the absence of intelligent aliens, of course, means that most of your conflicts are human vs human or human vs nature.

 

[SKyOdin]

well I have specific ideas for mechs that I want to use. I don't like a lot of large robot anime because it never made any sense to me. I can see the use for a mech on the ground but only if it stays below a certain size. Otherwise it is a large target. I like the kind that are more low to the ground like some of the multiped tanks from GitS.

From all of this, it definitely sounds like your preference is the furthest end of the Real Robot side of the mecha anime spectrum. In that case, I think the Vital Suits from Lost Planet that I mentioned earlier are one of your best bets for inspiration. Just last night I found a pretty decent video on youtube that shows off their basic designs, including their scale, how they move, and how the pilot boards and sits. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LzOPubP_Sw]YouTube - Lost Planet - Vital Suits[/ame]

Another classic series that fits the mold you are describing is Armored Trooper Votoms. It is an old series, and while the designs are humanoid, they have long been considered as realistic as mecha get. From the looks of it, Heavy Gear is heavily inspired by the Votom designs. The Armored Troopers from Votoms are only 4 meters tall, so they fit the general description of being relatively short. Likewise, Knightmare Frames from Code Geass are also mostly 4 to 4.5 meters in height. I believe that the AGWS from Xenosaga Episode 1 are also in this general height range. I like mechs that are this scale because they are only about as tall as the backboard on a regulation basketball hoop, so they easily fit inside trucks and can walk around inside larger buildings built for people.

EDIT: Oops, I meant to mention Patlabor. While most Labors from the Patlobor series are much larger than the mecha in the series I was just talking about (the starring mechs, the Ingrams, are themselves 8 meters tall), there are several interesting designs for civilian construction Labors and various non-humanoid Labor designs.

 

[garrowolf]

Excellent and thanks for the video. That is exactly the kind of things that I am looking for. Now I have to go research all of that!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Wrenching myself back on topic...

I would think that mecha- at least the bipedal ones- would mainly be man-amplification suits designed for industrial use- see Ripley's use of one in Aliens, and other similar things in myriad other movies.

I can't really see them becoming militarized due to their high profile and balance issues, but I can see them being pressed into service as platforms for light weapons or improvised weapons by civilians or criminals.

For instance, it may be that ManAmp suits- just slightly larger than their operators- are standard gear for Asteroid miners to use. They'd be useful to do repairs, loading or even the mining of the interiors of asteroids...especially the BIG ones that a family, gang or corporation might hollow out with rooms, pressurize and use as a base. Like on the moon, the best insulation against the hazards of space would be a layer of regolith between you and the outside. That interior work would be a lot easier and safer with a ManAmp suit than with an actual spaceship or just guys in space-suits. They'd be a good platform for drills (mechanical or laser), the "muscle" for moving mined ore or useless rock, air supply, some small maneuvering thrusters & their fuel, grapples & lines, and any sensors you'd care to mention...all while protecting the operators from shards or molten blobs of rock set flying by the mining process.

And a mining drill or laser could be used as an improvised weapon.

Now imagine you're a claim-jumper or other brigand in the Asteroid Belt. instead of all that mining gear, you strip your ManAmp suit down to some lasers, life-support thrusters and some extra layers of armor, and you can safely take down similarly suited miners, stealing their precious ore from the mine...or even from within the ship they placed it. instead of using your drill or laser for proper mining, its either a weapon used directly against the miners, or its used against the ship itself, cracking open cargo holds and taking what is within.

With that kind of idea in mind, the DP9 minis seem like they'd make fine ManAmp suits, due to their sizes. And almost any sci-fi line has nice looking armored guys- I always liked VOID Syntha minis for their classic clean lines. You might also check out HeroClix minis for guys like Iron Man, Crimson Dynamo, Dr. Doom, Ultron and other "mechanical" looking minis.

 

[SKyOdin]

I disagree that mecha would be limited to powered exo-skeletons used for asteroid mining and the like. The Fusion Age world we have been talking about is a world dominated by structures that completely dwarf anything that exists in our modern day. It is a world of orbital elevators, domed martian cities, underwater cities, massive orbiting space colonies, arcologies, and gigantic interplanetary transport ships. No machine currently existing is up to the task of building such structures. Furthermore, conventional machines like cranes and dump-trucks would be completely useless in unusual environments like outer space or underwater. All told, the Fusion Age would be a world dominated by structures and machines that completely dwarf human beings. I doubt that even a man in a powered exoskeleton would be large enough to be useful in many construction projects.

I can also see legged mecha being utilized for military use for the simple reason that they can be far superior to wheeled or tracked vehicles in rocky or mountainous terrain (which defines large sections of the Moon, Mars and other planets). Thinking about it, a mech than can jump could use that to quickly cross large distances in low-gravity environments like the Moon. Likewise, I can see the development of mecha designed with maneuvering thrusters for use in zero-G because they could be useful in low-gravity environments and space colonies (which have Earth gravity when standing on the rotating cylinder, but are zero-G along the axis). While powered armor could be used in such roles, they would pale in comparison in terms of capabilities and firepower to a full mech with a built-in Fusion reactor.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I disagree that mecha would be limited to powered exo-skeletons used for asteroid mining and the like.

I'm not limiting them to asteroid mining, just limiting them to largely non-combat roles.

I can also see legged mecha being utilized for military use for the simple reason that they can be far superior to wheeled or tracked vehicles in rocky or mountainous terrain (which defines large sections of the Moon, Mars and other planets).

I can't see that, at least not in the Fusion age. They're possibly better than other vehicles for traversing broken terrain, but they're also easier to hit. A mech striding across a battlefield is at least 1.5x as tall as a typical tank, so will be a great silhouette to target. And a tank can survive on a battlefield because of its heavy top & front armor- no room for that on a man-shaped mech.

A jumping mech, even one with some thrusters, is essentially a ballistic target, and as such, could be hit accurately by current technology.

 

[SKyOdin]

Note that I'm not specifically talking about purely humanoid designs, considering that the VSs I suggested earlier are only loosely humanoid. (Though, I have no problem with someone wanting to have very humanoid mecha designs.) A design like the VSs I linked to earlier has plenty of room for heavy front armor to protect the engine and pilot. Furthermore, the entire armor argument depends heavily on the power balance between armor and weaponry in the Fusion Age. There is no particular reason it has to be the same as weapons and armor of the modern day. The whole easy target argument is also a matter of terrain and other factors. However, I don't want to get too deep into this kind of discussion, because we are talking about technology that only exists in our imagination and possess whatever qualities we choose to ascribe to it. What really matters are the answers to the questions "Is this concept interesting?" and "Does this concept fit in with the other elements in the setting I am creating?"

Science Fiction creators knowingly or unknowingly push the limits of plausibility and the laws of physics all the time. To cite an example that has been mentioned off-hand in this thread and the others, people ascribe completely implausible and downright magical qualities to nanotechnology all the time. Realistically, grey goo has no chance of destroying the Earth. Heck, the very idea of self-replicating nanomachines itself is pretty ludicrous. However, that doesn't stop the idea of nanotechnolgy from being interesting and a potentially very useful setting element or plot device.

In any case, if I wanted to make mecha useful in a Fusion Age setting, it would simply be a matter of defining the technology in use in the setting such that they are practical. Just like nanotechnology, mecha are just plausible enough that it is possible to get people to accept them if they are done right and portrayed in a fashion consistent with the rest of the setting.

Besides, I think it is way too early to right off mecha as wildly impractical. No one has even tried to make one in the real world, let alone test it in realistic conditions. When people actually do invent walking vehicles and they are passed over as impractical for military use, then we can say that as a certainty. Until then, we are just guessing.

However, this whole thing does bring up a though. Garrowolf, while I asked about what weapons are in use in your setting, I didn't ask about stuff like shields, barriers, optical camouflage, holograms, or anything like that. What other kinds of military technology do you envision as being in use in your setting?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Science Fiction creators knowingly or unknowingly push the limits of plausibility and the laws of physics all the time.

I agree with this and many other things you're saying...I just don't think combat mecha- especially anthropomorphic ones- are appropriate for a Fusion Age setting.

Bipedal walking is a real engineering achievement. It has taken us decades to get to the few bipedal robots that we've designed to date...and they're not particularly fast or agile. Even with a human pilot, such a task would be challenging in the least.

And there is still the issue of armor. An anthropomorphic mech simply can't tote the kind of mass of protective systems with current or forseeable technology that would make it survivable on the current battlefield.

Now, get into the realm of portable nuclear reactors and truly sci-fi materials (and by that, I mean beyond the woven carbon-fibers, nanodiamonds and other exotics you see in things like Bova's or KSR's novels) and you can start justifying battlemechs. But that's at least centuries away, IMHO.

But of course, this isn't my campaign, and we're just brainstorming.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Although...

there are already some really cool experiments being done with "invisibility" systems- Dr. Michio Kaku shows us several in his series, Sci Fi Science.*

Its conceivable that you could have militarized mecha that are stealth suits- light armor, a few weapons, and a sophisticated optical camouflage system that lets them blend in, virtually invisible to the eye (human or electronic).

* another episode covers the sci-fi science of Iron Man- type suits, which are also applicable in this case. Crucial was the bit about artificial "muscles" that could move the suit with both power AND speed: current research has shown potential solutions that are one or the other, but not both.

 

[jefgorbach]

The d20 Mecha Compendium Deluxe offers vehicle construction rules for d20 with an eye towards mechas which should be easy enough to use as-is/convert to your system. Includes many Heavy Gear mech examples.

The other thing to consider is any culture capable of developing battlemechs would likewise capable UAV/robotic units capable of delivering the same payload in a much smaller package.

Therefore rather than being the "ultimate" battlefield controllers, consider limiting mechs to the same scale as other vehicles, working alongside human-sized power armor infantry in medium/heavy forest and congested urban conditions, where conventional/GEV tanks would prove a liability.