Need new ECL workaround!!!!

[ScottDM]

ECLS are a horrible solution to a percieved problem. They make more powerful creatures weaker by reducing their level.

Lets look at it this way. A drow is a +2 ECL. that means a first level drow is effectively a third level character with first level abilities. this is saying that a party of four first level drow characters are equal to a party of four third level humans (for arguments sake, using the iconic classes, fighter rogue, wizard, and cleric.). This is not even close to being true. First the human players have access to 8 feats the drow do not. Second damage caps on magic are in the humans favor, where the humans can cast second level spells, the drow are only casting first level spells (as first level casters). Advancement is always in favor of non ECL characters. It takes a human 1,000 EP to reach second level. A drow must gain 3,000 EP to be first level. Why? Are drow stupid or something? Because he can make darkness (which even he can't see in) he doesn't pay attention to the crap he learns? The work arounds in unearthed arcana and players guide to fearun are a start but they still hamper a character and don't address the fact that the is a fundimental problem with ECLs.

I am currently thinking of just ignoring ECLs and just using them as a yes or no guideline for my campaign. My players have argued against them from the begining and I agree.
I would like to see how some others are using or working around them.

 

[Planesdragon]

Lets look at it this way. A drow is a +2 ECL.

Well, what else do you suggest to offset four (?) unchecked ability score increases, Spell resistance, spell-like abilities, and greater-than-normal wealth?

Remember that ECL is a measure of PC balance, not combat-effectiveness. IIRC drow are still 1 CR, which means (roughly) that they're as dangerous as humans one level higher than them.

If you're runnig a coreish game, don't forget that drow get full equipment for their level. EVERY drow can have full plate and a masterwork weapon--so PC drow can be above the norm, but the norm's still a lot above humans.

 

[Planesdragon]

Almost forgot:

A good way to offset those abilities, if you don't want them to be ECL, is to create a two-level prestige class that doesn't grant anything but the drow's expensive ablities (spell-like abiltiies, ability score increases, and spell resistance.)

 

[Cerubus Dark]

I actually like this idea, it won't be a PrC mind you but I can see making a Drow PC in this case taking two levels as his core race to gain his nifty powers. If not he is no better than average joe elf next door.

 

[craftyrat]

I also strongly dislike the whole ECL system. I've toyed with the idea of exp penalties, replacing ECL. I've haven't run the numbers yet, but it would be 10-20% per former ECL. Of course, there are rules in UA for buying off ECL levels.

craftyrat

 

[ScottDM]

A good way to offset those abilities, if you don't want them to be ECL, is to create a two-level prestige class that doesn't grant anything but the drow's expensive ablities (spell-like abiltiies, ability score increases, and spell resistance.)

This is what ECLs do........

My problem isn't keeping players in balance, its that ECLs penalize them for the duration. The UA method of buying them off is nice, but it belays the fact that a third level party facing proper CR creatures still has a much better chance of meeting his maker because he only has one hit die!!! so a drow wizard in a third level party has 3 hit points on average (-2 constitution). Im sure any CR 3 creature has this as there minimum damage.

 

[Kalanyr]

I think the main problem is that ECL tend to be slightly over inflated, especially riwhen the majority of it comes from LA rather than HD. 3 Spell-Like abilities 1/day, +2 Int, +2 Cha and SR which blocks 40% or less of the spells of something of appropriate challenge but blocks 50% of all friendly spells cast by you or your drow party members is a fairly poor trade for 2 levels of just about anything. It might be worth considering not allowing ECL races to have more LA than HD, I've found it helps their survivability ie Drow are always Class Level 2 and Character Level 4 or more.

Oh and the greater than normal wealth is utterly false its merely normal wealth for a creature of the new ECL, if it wasn't for the ECL the wealth would still be normal for a creature of the drows level.

 

[Planesdragon]

a third level party facing proper CR creatures still has a much better chance of meeting his maker because he only has one hit die!!! so a drow wizard in a third level party has 3 hit points on average (-2 constitution). Im sure any CR 3 creature has this as there minimum damage.

(minor nitpick: average PC base ability score is 12, not 10.)

You're right. A 1st level drow wizard is an easy mark. Which is why they need to rely on their natural gifts, or they simply won't survive.

I think the main problem is that ECL tend to be slightly over inflated, especially riwhen the majority of it comes from LA rather than HD. 3 Spell-Like abilities 1/day, +2 Int, +2 Cha and SR which blocks 40% or less of the spells of something of appropriate challenge but blocks 50% of all friendly spells cast by you or your drow party members is a fairly poor trade for 2 levels of just about anything.

(a second nitpick: characters can drop or resume Spell Resistance as a free action. Provided that the PC knows what spell their ally is casting, they should be able to simply accept it just as they'd not have to save against it. In general, making a PC's ability work against them at all goes against the intent of the rules.)

You forgot the very-good darkvision, and the +2 on will saves from magic.

More to the point... you're right. Drow, with light-blindness, aren't worth +2 LA. They really should have a +1 LA, or a removal of light-blindness and Poison use with Drow Venom.

 

[CRGreathouse]

(a second nitpick: characters can drop or resume Spell Resistance as a free action. Provided that the PC knows what spell their ally is casting, they should be able to simply accept it just as they'd not have to save against it. In general, making a PC's ability work against them at all goes against the intent of the rules.)

"A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance. Doing so is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Once a creature lowers its resistance, it remains down until the creature’s next turn. At the beginning of the creature’s next turn, the creature’s spell resistance automatically returns unless the creature intentionally keeps it down (also a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity)."

 

[ScottDM]

quote
"You forgot the very-good darkvision, and the +2 on will saves from magic.

More to the point... you're right. Drow, with light-blindness, aren't worth +2 LA. They really should have a +1 LA, or a removal of light-blindness and Poison use with Drow Venom."

And what about the fact that every other living being in Faerun wants to kill you just for who and what you are? Thats gotta be a -2 or better ECL alone!

quote got clipped first time around.