Need Some Ideas On Dealing With Death.

[Kunimatyu]

What KM said.

The key is giving players dramatic control over their character's narrative. If the players neither want control or drama, it's really not necessary, just roll up a toon and back to the dungeon you go.

 

[Remathilis]

DM: Your +3 radiant ancestral sword is broken beyond simple repair. You seem to have picked up vulnerable 5 cold, too. Also, please write down this "lingering wound - ribcage" stuff, you'll need it.

Cool!

I've earned an undying hatred for a foe that some point down the line I will vanquish, a quest to reforge my sword, an odd condition to either cover up with magic or find some way to reverse, and a reason to take a good long rest at the inn and see a cleric.

But I'm still playing my character! I'm not out of the action rolling up Bob the Fighter II. The PC who had developed relationships (both with PCs and NPCs), collected a legendary list of accomplishments, and shared victory & defeat alike is still mine to play next week.

And I'm going to put that to chance for a couple of action points, why?

 

[I'm A Banana]

And I'm going to put that to chance for a couple of action points, why?

Because it's
MORE FANTASTICAL.

Because rolling up a fresh toon who is at full power is probably better than dealing with Gimpy McChestwound over here.

Because the thing you were fighting before was the dragon who once ate 99% of your ancestral tribe, whom your parents told you it was your destiny, your birthright to kill, and who, if you don't kill, you might as well not be alive for all the good it does you having failed to fulfill your entire justification for existence....

Because you're sure that hit that brought you down to 0 hp was a lucky shot, and it won't get that chance again.

Lotsa reasons.

Survival isn't the be-all end-all for every character, y'know?

 

[CleverNickName]

Aside from the fact that I never liked resurrection (I ban it in pretty much all of my games), this system would make me hate it all the more. Why would I bring my character who died back to have him be crippled and die even faster the next time? I'd rather make a new character.

(shrug) To each his own, I guess. To be honest, the PCs don't die often enough for this to become much of an issue.

 

[Remathilis]

Because it's MORE FANTASTICAL.

Because rolling up a fresh toon who is at full power is probably better than dealing with Gimpy McChestwound over here.

Because the thing you were fighting before was the dragon who once ate 99% of your ancestral tribe, whom your parents told you it was your destiny, your birthright to kill, and who, if you don't kill, you might as well not be alive for all the good it does you having failed to fulfill your entire justification for existence....

Because you're sure that hit that brought you down to 0 hp was a lucky shot, and it won't get that chance again.

Lotsa reasons.

Survival isn't the be-all end-all for every character, y'know?

I guess we're arguing cross point here, lets make sure we're on the same ground.

I like my PCs. They have names and personalities and backgrounds and funny accents. They do cool things, eventually settle down, and start kingdoms or families or both. I enjoy watching them grow, both in mechanics (XP) and as characters.

Death, or not being able to play said PC, is not desirable. Death need not be -10 hp, but something that forever makes playing (and growing) that PC no longer possible. These effects would take my PC away from me, and for this context, it doesn't matter if its literal death, imprisonment, petrification, or whatever.

This "death flag" sounds like a godsend. I never have to lose my PC! If I fail, I suffer setbacks and consequences, but my PC perseveres. Unless you are going to punish me in some way that makes him unplayable (Both your arms are cut off, which to me is death by a different name) I get continue to play him. As long as I never up the flag, I can play him until the campaign ends!

Perhaps its survival, but my character doesn't see it like that. He "knows" that fight could be fatal. He (thinks he) risks his life every time he draws steel. I, as a player though, know the consequences of failure isn't losing the ability to play that character any longer. I can take risks, be heroic, what have you. If I fail, I try again. If I failed in the normal rules (without as death flag boons) I'd lose worse; the bad-guy would still win and I'd be rolling 4d6. Now, I can try, and if I fail, I can have my PC deal with the ramifications of failure.

Immortality, in other words, in a game like D&D where random dice rolls can snuff out a favorite PC or end an otherwise great PC idea, is far worth anything you can offer me to risk dying and losing the opportunity to never play him again. Selfish? Maybe. I've never met a DM who offered me a chance like that. And I've rolled up my fair share of replacement "toons" to replace beloved characters.

Then again, my games are typically story/character driven, so any opportunity to mitigate random death is a good one. I know for me and all my players though, I'd NEVER see that death flag EVER pop up. Not for anything as trivial as action points. Perhaps with a better boon (auto successes? refreshed PC hp & spells?) I'd see it. Who knows.

I'm not knocking the rule; I think its kinda brilliant. But I see it as "trade off your PCs immortality for a bunch of minor bonuses that may/may not help you in an epic situation". To me the choice is obvious.

If you got full house, you don't trade two cards in hopes of four of a kind.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I guess we're arguing cross point here, lets make sure we're on the same ground.

Good thinkin'.

I like my PCs...Death, or not being able to play said PC, is not desirable....

With ya so far.

This "death flag" sounds like a godsend. I never have to lose my PC!

Here's a bit of dissonance:

Losing your PC isn't that big of a deal.

It's not desirable, but once it happens, it's easy to move on. If you absolutely can't get resurrected and you fail all your saves and wind up irrevocably beyond help, it isn't a common scenario. And it lets you do something that is a lot of fun for most players: making a new character.

It's rare, and it has its own rewards, so it's fine, in moderation.

The death flag doesn't mean you won't ever lose your PC, typically. It means that when you might loose your PC, it'll be good for the story, rather than because of a lucky crit.

You could never raise your death flag, but I'd say that any player who would never raise their death flag makes the death flag a pretty lousy rule for that group, in the same way that a player who wants to farm beets and forge swords makes a pretty lousy adventuring companion.

The player has to understand that while loosing your character sucks, there are things in this world that are greater than your character, and they are thus worth fighting and dying for, even if it might suck.

This has the advantage of working a whole lot like normal human mentality, which is willing to murder and risk being murdered for faiths, nations, causes, or ideals. Heck, I just saw a video of a man who jumped off the Eiffel tower trying to test his new "parachute clothes" drop like a rock and die predictably at the end. People risk their lives for parachute clothes. The death flag ensures that you won't die accidentally like random NPC's, though. You'll die HEROICALLY.

If the player believes that the loosing their character is the worst thing for the game, then the death flag probably isn't appropriate for them.

Now, I can try, and if I fail, I can have my PC deal with the ramifications of failure.

And when those ramifications are worse for the story, for the world, for the realm, for the princess, for the NPC's...then you risk ultimate failure.

If you don't recognize that as worse than having to roll up a new character...then obviously the death flag ain't quite for you.

Immortality, in other words, in a game like D&D where random dice rolls can snuff out a favorite PC or end an otherwise great PC idea, is far worth anything you can offer me to risk dying and losing the opportunity to never play him again. Selfish? Maybe. I've never met a DM who offered me a chance like that. And I've rolled up my fair share of replacement "toons" to replace beloved characters.

I'd say you probably wouldn't have fun with a heroic sacrifice, then, and that's mostly what the Death Flag facilitates, in the same way that a Beet Farmer wouldn't have much fun in a dungeon crawl.

You'd probably have a lot of fun with an "accepted immortality" kind of house rule, though. It's not that unusual to have invincible PC's that only permenantly "die" when the retire because a player wants to try something new. FFZ has that, in fact, in order to represent the games a bit better.

It's not really my default style, because I like death to be at stake, but you'd probably be cool with it, and that's okay. Different strokes and all that.

Then again, my games are typically story/character driven, so any opportunity to mitigate random death is a good one. I know for me and all my players though, I'd NEVER see that death flag EVER pop up. Not for anything as trivial as action points. Perhaps with a better boon (auto successes? refreshed PC hp & spells?) I'd see it. Who knows.

Whereas most of my usual players would probably raise it at the first instance of a goblin that they just want to TOTALLY SHATTER.

Seriously, go with "accepted immortality." It's totally OK to never have a PC die if it's not that fun. Story and character driven games (like FFZ) benefit greatly from this consistency. D&D is a bit more about the game on this axis, though, and I like it for that.

Death flag probably wouldn't work that well for you guys. That's okay.

I'm not knocking the rule; I think its kinda brilliant. But I see it as "trade off your PCs immortality for a bunch of minor bonuses that may/may not help you in an epic situation". To me the choice is obvious.

If you got full house, you don't trade two cards in hopes of four of a kind.

With a heavily narrative game (like FFZ, and, it sounds, like your D&D games), yeah, the choice is obvious, because in a very narrative game, characters should never just die.

To add a bit of dramatic WOW to a more "game" game, it helps ensure that you die when it's cool, and are preserved when it's lame. It helps you define what your character will risk their lives for -- what they feel is greater than themselves, their deity, their nation, their family -- and via that connects them more deeply to the world. It helps add a narrative element that is very cool: That dramatic sacrifice in the 11th hour for everything!

It really sounds to me like your games would just benefit from some accepted immortality, though. Which is cool, I enjoy games like that, too, I just enjoy them differently from D&D.

 

[malraux]

I've used this one to good effect in my games. Coming back from the dead always costs 1 point of Constitution. This loss is permanent, and cannot be restored even by immortal magic. If this would drop the character's Con score to 0, that character cannot be raised and is forever lost.

Has the last part of that rule ever actually come up in a game. Joe the Fighter started the campaign with 16 Con, but now he's died so many times he's at 2 Con, for example?

Anyway, Heroes of Horror had a few good ideas about come back from the dead. Sure your stats might be the same, but that doesn't mean the character isn't different. An evil soul might have grabbed him in the world beyond and waits for him to sleep to come forward. Or the Raven Queen might offer the character release from her realm in exchange for certain benefits.

 

[Kunimatyu]

stuff

I see where you're coming from - you'd rather sacrifice the spotlight for immortality.

For others, being in the spotlight at the right time IS the "immortality". Having a PC die at a memorable moment is better then always sticking around but never being front and center.

I feel like Death Flag works for both groups, honestly.

In my last campaign I had players who put their death flag up all the time to grab the spotlight, and others who kept it down but threw caution to the wind every fight.

 

[CleverNickName]

Has the last part of that rule ever actually come up in a game. Joe the Fighter started the campaign with 16 Con, but now he's died so many times he's at 2 Con, for example?

Nope. Characters really don't die all that often in my games. The party doesn't get into too many fights, and most of them are non-lethal situations like barfights. Life-or-death battles are very rare, and occur only after diplomacy breaks down or we arrive at the grand finale of a quest.

The most any one character ever got resurrected was the rogue...she ended up getting raised five times before she retired, I think. That said, our wizard has never been slain in all fifteen levels of his career.

But I'll level with you: if you prefer a high-combat game where the characters are fighting a dozen battles each day, this is probably not a rule you will want.

 

[Minigiant]

In my game, the ressurected go insane but gain power. A returned soul brings fragments of other souls. These souls talk to the returned, grants them secrets, and influence their bodies.

Your fighter might be raised and suddenly realized that he know some magic spells. But the fragment of the dead mage's soul also hold's the prymancer's crippling fear of dragons. Your sorceror might find himself doing more sit ups for some reason for gain +2 con. But you got the barbarian's rage and you can't control when it pops up.

Do you kill the goblin rogue knowing that if it's friends kill you in this fight, you might gain its stealth and cowardice.