Nerfing the Archer Ranger a little

[Mithreinmaethor]

Re: Mithreinmaethor
Fair enough; we'll know for sure when it comes out. As for the other stuff, I guess for me, Dragon never trumps the core rulebooks. Not sure why it would. If they want to update the rule, they should make an errata - they shouldn't "stealth" update in a magazine that technically you have to pay for that doesn't even mention that it's an update but just prints it like that's what it is. I assumed Dragon was a misprint when I first read it. If bugbears get the same treatment, I'll continue to run them as oversized as well and consider it "official" until the MM gets errata'd.

As I said before that works fine and well for home campaigns where the DM can house rule whatever they wish.

But the Character Builder will always be updated to the most recent rules release. This is needed because a large number of people play in organized games and they have to use the most recent rules source for play.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Oversized weapon needs to be like monkey grip of 3rd edition: coming with a -2 penalty to attack. Then it is still good, at early levels about as powerful as power attack, but not (much more) overpowered (than other racial features/feats)...

 

[Bagpuss]

Dragon never trumps the core rulebooks. Not sure why it would.

Because "everything is core" including Dragon and Dungeon.

If they want to update the rule, they should make an errata

It doesn't need an errata the stuff in the Monster Manual is for DM's to create NPCs, "although can be used as guidelines for PCs within reason". Dragon and The Character Builder reflect the rules that PCs should use.

Hence both the MM and the Character Builder/Dragon are correct.

I assumed Dragon was a misprint when I first read it. If bugbears get the same treatment, I'll continue to run them as oversized as well and consider it "official" until the MM gets errata'd.

It's "official" with Dragon. Dragon is for players the MM is for NPCs.

 

[evilbob]

This is really starting to warrant another thread, but:

Well, no, because the MM contains information on PC races in the back. That is what I was referring to. If the PC race "minotaur" in the MM changes, then they should list an errata (which are free and posted online) for the MM. They should not assume that everyone who bought the MM also has to pay for a premium DDI account in order to get updates. That's unreasonable, yes?

(And I still don't even personally consider the Dragon article about minotaurs to be an update since there was nothing written to indicate it was supposed to supersede or update the MM in any way.)

 

[Mithreinmaethor]

This is really starting to warrant another thread, but:

Well, no, because the MM contains information on PC races in the back. That is what I was referring to. If the PC race "minotaur" in the MM changes, then they should list an errata (which are free and posted online) for the MM. They should not assume that everyone who bought the MM also has to pay for a premium DDI account in order to get updates. That's unreasonable, yes?

(And I still don't even personally consider the Dragon article about minotaurs to be an update since there was nothing written to indicate it was supposed to supersede or update the MM in any way.)

Yes and no. You need to read the forward to that section .....

Monster Manual p.276
"Several of the monsters in the Monster Manual have racial traits and powers, not unlike the races presented in the Player’s Handbook. In general, these traits and powers are provided to help Dungeon Masters create nonplayer characters (NPCs). This information can also be used as guidelines for creating player character (PC) versions of these creatures, within reason. Note that these traits and powers are more in line with monster powers than with player character powers.

A player should only use one of the following races to create a character with the permission of the Dungeon Master. The DM should carefully consider which monster races, if any, to allow as PCs in his or her campaign."

As you can see these were not put there for PC's to be able to use to make characters. They were placed there for GM's to make NPC's. Players are allowed to use them as the GM sees fit but the GM is cautioned against doing so.

The Monster Manual is not a player resource.

 

[Bagpuss]

This is really starting to warrant another thread, but:

Rather than fork I'll try and make this my last word on the subject.

Well, no, because the MM contains information on PC races in the back.

No it doesn't. Read the intro to that chapter "In general these traits and powers are provided to help Dungeon Masters create nonplayer characters (NPCs). This information can also be used to create guidelines for creating player character (PC) versions of these creatures, within reason. Note that these traints and powers are more in line with monster powers than with player character powers."

They aren't the rules for creating PC monster, they aren't even the guidelines for making PC monster, they are just the starting point to creating PC versions of these races.

That is what I was referring to.

If the PC race "minotaur" in the MM changes, then they should list an errata (which are free and posted online) for the MM.

Again there isn't a PC race "minotaur" in the MM there is an NPC race. The NPC race hasn't changed.

(And I still don't even personally consider the Dragon article about minotaurs to be an update since there was nothing written to indicate it was supposed to supersede or update the MM in any way.)

That's because it doesn't replace or supersede the NPC rules that are in the monster manual. It does however use them as guidelines to create a PC version of that race the Dragon article being the first official version of a PC playable Minotaur race.

Similarly, there are no official rules for a Bugbear PC, Kolbold PC, etc. etc. I think there are for Gnolls now thanks to Dragon again.

 

[Gawdzila]

Concerning the Great Bow, the longbow already has increased to D10 compared to the D8 of the crossbow. How much more edge to we need to give to the archer? If the longbow was still D8 I wouldn't have a problem with the greatbow doing D10.

But as is, I have a problem with the Ranger using D12 when the warlock can't increase his own base dice and when he is already trailing a bit in damage even if the ranger uses the standard longbow.

Keep in mind that Rangers virtually always target AC, whilst Warlocks are usually targeting the much more vulnerable Will/Fort/Reflex defenses. This way more than makes up for the only slightly superior die d12 type, which adds only +1 avg. damage and was paid for with a feat anyhow.

Besides, what is so special about base damage dice? Damage is damage. You may as well complain about Rangers getting to use Weapon Focus, which Warlocks also can't use for their attacks, and which is arguably the more potent feat anyway.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

increasing damage dice is much better then weapon focus. every time one uses a special power, the X[w] is multiplying the +1 damage one gets. You have a good point that warlocks and rogues can hit against something other then ac.

 

[evilbob]

Rather than fork I'll try and make this my last word on the subject.

Good idea; I'll do the same:

Re: everything you just said: I disagree completely. Mithreinmaethor: ditto to you.

There, now that's settled, I'll look for any forks that may appear.

 

[Mithreinmaethor]

Good idea; I'll do the same:

Re: everything you just said: I disagree completely. Mithreinmaethor: ditto to you.

There, now that's settled, I'll look for any forks that may appear.

You can disagree all that you like. It doesnt mean that you are any less wrong. Even when presented with the actual text you still wish to see it otherwise. Thats fine since you are playing in a home campaign. When the full character builder comes out and the Minotaur no longer has the oversized weapon trait you will just have to house rule it back in. Since as has been stated the character builder will be updated and use the most recent rules source.