D&D General Nerfing Wizards the Old Fashioned Way: Magic User in 1e

[Alzrius]

Is that 2e? In 1e, if they had a holy avenger, it simply dispelled all magic within a 10' radius if the spell level was lower than paladin level. No % involved.

It did both, actually.

 

[Wasteland Knight]

I'm pretty sure that was only if they were wielding a holy avenger sword.

Yes, only with a +5 Holy Avenger.

I’m working from home and my “office” is next to my gaming shelves, so I pulled my PHB and DMG to check

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

Disbelief has to be handled very carefully and takes a good DM to assess the spell, the target, and just what the PC is trying to do. In a world where a wizard really can summon a demon, or conjure a wall of fire, seeing an illusion of these things isn't something that would necessarily look fake (depending on the effect and the spell used).

One rule that helped a lot of illusions was that the player had to had a good reason to disbelieve it. Just saying I check if it is not an illusion could imply a penalty to the save. Disbelieving something was always a risky business. If it was real, the monster or whatever you hit you fairly easily. If you failed the save, the illusion would hit you anyway and illusionnary damage could be enough to kill anyways. A few rounds of interacting were usually necessary to get the notion that something was wrong.

And then, the damn illusionnist would cast demi-shadow monster/magic and the illusion would still do damage to you, reinforcing others into believing it to be fully real. Yep, adjudicating these was not an easy task.

 

[Sacrosanct]

It did both, actually.

Ah, I was only remembering the paladin entry in the PHB. Yet another 1e inconsistency lol

If a paladin has a "Holy Sword" (a special Magic Sword which
your referee is aware of and will explain to you if the need
arises), he or she projects a circle of power 1" in diameter
when the Holy Sword is unsheathed and held; and this power
dispels magic (see CHARACTER SPELLS, dispel magic) at the
level of magic use equal to the experience level of the
paladin.

 

[Wasteland Knight]

Ah, I was only remembering the paladin entry in the PHB. Yet another 1e inconsistency lol

If a paladin has a "Holy Sword" (a special Magic Sword which
your referee is aware of and will explain to you if the need
arises), he or she projects a circle of power 1" in diameter
when the Holy Sword is unsheathed and held; and this power
dispels magic (see CHARACTER SPELLS, dispel magic) at the
level of magic use equal to the experience level of the
paladin.

Yes

I do remember a Paladin character who was close to, if not at, 10th level with a +5 Holy Avenger plus magic platemail, magic shield and a host of other goodies. That character was a beast against Evil opponents.

 

[Lanefan]

AC didn't help enough? Bracers of Defence AC 2, Ring +3 Cloak +3 and a middling Dex and I've got a -6 AC. Most creatures need a 20 to hit me. And that was easily achievable in single digit levels in AD&D.

The last isn't saying much, as single-digit levels were about 95% of the play in that system - by 9th level you were roughly the equivalent of a 15th-18th level 3e or 5e character.

One thing I did was change the pricing on items such that basic stuff (e.g. +1 whatevers, most potions, etc.) became cheaper than in the DMG but higher-end things (e.g. anything +3 or higher) became more expensive. Hence, while in my game that sequence of items (Bracers 2, Ring +3, Cloak +3) is achievable you'd be looking at a total cost well north of 100,000 g.p. in order to get it; which means you're not buying or claiming much else over your career.

It always amazes me just how different people's experiences are with the game. Like I said earlier, if your MU is in combat, someone done screwed up. A lot. Why isn't your MU thirty feet behind the party with a wall of armored dudes in front? Do people just wade into combat with MU's?

Sometimes, evil DMs like me will bring the combat to the MUs.

More often, if combat gets to the MU it's not because the MU screwed up so much as it is the front-liners can't defend in all directions at once when the party is surrounded in an open field or when ambushed in a forest.

 

[Aaron L]

My takeaway from playing 1E is nothing was remotely balanced yet we still had tons of fun.

There’s a lesson there.

"Balance" is the job of the Dungeon Master. It comes from the DM giving each PC their own turn in the spotlight to allow everyone an equal amount of "oh that's cool!" time.

 

[Hussar]

Why would you put rings or cloaks on the fighters? They don't stack with magic armor. Maybe the thief. Bracers AC 2 for the fighter? Why? Platemail was just as good and by that time, he probably had plate +2 and a +2 or 3 shield. Never minding Full Plate (Unearthed Arcana) which comes with an AC 2.

We automatically gave any AC items to the MU for this specific reason.

And, as far as Monte Haul goes, well, again, look at official TSR modules. GDQ, A series, whatnot. If you actually followed the treasure guidelines in the DMG, yeah, you had that many magic items and more.

Remember, a single troll could as a lair. And that had a chance of 3 magic items. Again, go back and google the Quasqueton reviews of classic modules to see just how much magic was in there.

 

[Hussar]

I'd also point out a bit of an inconsistency here.

I mentioned that Paladins were limited to 10 magic items, thus, the expectation was that everyone else in the group would have more than ten magic items. It was pointed out that many PC's would have back up items - thus, more than 10 magic items. But, when I then point out that PC's have more powerful items, suddenly it's Monte Haul time and that groups would never see that many magic items?

So, which is it?

And, while all these house rules are cool and all, I thought we were discussing AD&D, not your home game. Wands don't explode if they are broken. There was nothing in the rules for that. I forget now if there was something specific to a necklace of missiles, so, that's possible, but, someone else would have to look it up.

As far as being ambushed or surrounded in an open field, yup, that means that someone done screwed the pooch there. No NPC outriders scouting your flanks? No dogs? No elves in the party? No rangers? Just how often are your AD&D parties getting surprised?

I dunno. When we played AD&D, we'd have 6-8 PC's, probably that many NPC henchmen and easily double that number in various other goodies - dogs, charmed stuff, animated dead depending on our alignment, and that's of course ignoring the umpteen other things you can do.

 

[Helldritch]

You are both wrong and right. It's not the amount of magic items you mention that brought the Mounty haul mention, but the fact that these items were on one character of a single digit. A +1 ring might not stack with magical armor but would definitely stack with a non magical one. Faced with the choice of a +2 chain mail or plate with a +1 ring, a fighter would always choose the later. The chances to get a magical plate were low but magical shields were more common.

Yes the limitations of paladins on magical items was a harsh one. It meant that the paladin had no back up to rely on. The party fighter might have 3 +1 swords, 2 magical armors and 3 magical shields as backup if he lost his +2 long sword, +2 chain mail and +2 shield. The paladin, if push came to shove, was stuck with normal, non magical items.

Items of the +1-2 variety were not really that rare, especially weapons and you could find them relatively easily. But high end items such as a simple +1 plate, a magical ring or anything other than scrolls and potion were not that easy to find. Depending on your luck, magical wands were not too rare and a wizard could expect to have a few by 12th level. But the vast majority of magical would be weapons of the +1-2 variety and magical chain mails or worse armor types of the +1-2 variety. Any armor a plate quality or higher would be rare to the extreme and just a rumor of a magical +1 field plate in a treasure hoard would send dozens of adventuring groups to the rumored site.

Yes, magical items were a lot more common place in 1ed but their quality was usually of the +1-2 variety.