D&D General Nerfing Wizards the Old Fashioned Way: Magic User in 1e

[Wasteland Knight]

"Balance" is the job of the Dungeon Master. It comes from the DM giving each PC their own turn in the spotlight to allow everyone an equal amount of "oh that's cool!" time.

I agree, but I’d expand that to say “balance” is primarily the responsibility of the GM, but every player also has a role to contribute.

The great games I’ve been a part of, the fund that ran for years, all had this in common - every player who came to the table was interested in both developing their character but also doing so in a manner that allowed everyone to enjoy themselves and would give each player opportunities to “shine”. people voluntarily adjusted concepts and builds to fit within the framework of the game.

so when I hear gamers going on about needing specific, detailed and at times complex rules to reign in certain players, my immediate response is no, you don’t need all those things to “balance” the game, you need that player to balance their character. And if the player don’t voluntarily do that, you simply don’t need that player.

 

[Wasteland Knight]

Why would you put rings or cloaks on the fighters? They don't stack with magic armor. Maybe the thief. Bracers AC 2 for the fighter? Why? Platemail was just as good and by that time, he probably had plate +2 and a +2 or 3 shield. Never minding Full Plate (Unearthed Arcana) which comes with an AC 2.

We automatically gave any AC items to the MU for this specific reason.

And, as far as Monte Haul goes, well, again, look at official TSR modules. GDQ, A series, whatnot. If you actually followed the treasure guidelines in the DMG, yeah, you had that many magic items and more.

Remember, a single troll could as a lair. And that had a chance of 3 magic items. Again, go back and google the Quasqueton reviews of classic modules to see just how much magic was in there.

1.To augment saving throws

2. In case the character had to fight sans armor. Armor needed to be removed to properly rest, and at times various in-campaign reasons would arise.

You’ve presented a very specific set of circumstances as de rigeur at all tables when, in fact, it‘s reasonably uncommon across a large cohort of gamers.

So yes, with that set of items a MU would have a substantial AC. But to say most MUs would acquire a set of Bracers AC 2, ring +3 and Cloak +3 fairly early in their career...

 

[Hussar]

You are both wrong and right. It's not the amount of magic items you mention that brought the Mounty haul mention, but the fact that these items were on one character of a single digit. A +1 ring might not stack with magical armor but would definitely stack with a non magical one. Faced with the choice of a +2 chain mail or plate with a +1 ring, a fighter would always choose the later. The chances to get a magical plate were low but magical shields were more common.

Yes the limitations of paladins on magical items was a harsh one. It meant that the paladin had no back up to rely on. The party fighter might have 3 +1 swords, 2 magical armors and 3 magical shields as backup if he lost his +2 long sword, +2 chain mail and +2 shield. The paladin, if push came to shove, was stuck with normal, non magical items.

Items of the +1-2 variety were not really that rare, especially weapons and you could find them relatively easily. But high end items such as a simple +1 plate, a magical ring or anything other than scrolls and potion were not that easy to find. Depending on your luck, magical wands were not too rare and a wizard could expect to have a few by 12th level. But the vast majority of magical would be weapons of the +1-2 variety and magical chain mails or worse armor types of the +1-2 variety. Any armor a plate quality or higher would be rare to the extreme and just a rumor of a magical +1 field plate in a treasure hoard would send dozens of adventuring groups to the rumored site.

Yes, magical items were a lot more common place in 1ed but their quality was usually of the +1-2 variety.

You realize that there are multiple suits of +1 Plate Mail in Keep on the Borderlands right? The Moathouse in Temple of Elemental Evil had a +1 suit of Plate Mail. By the time they finished up the first couple of Dungeon Levels in TOEE, there were multiple suits of +1 Plate, a Frost Brand +3 and a shopping list of about 50 magic items. The PC's should be about 5th or 6th level by this point.

Magical plate was not rare at all. It was common as dirt. Good grief, FOLLOWERS came with +1 plate mail.

 

[Hussar]

1.To augment saving throws

2. In case the character had to fight sans armor. Armor needed to be removed to properly rest, and at times various in-campaign reasons would arise.

You’ve presented a very specific set of circumstances as de rigeur at all tables when, in fact, it‘s reasonably uncommon across a large cohort of gamers.

So yes, with that set of items a MU would have a substantial AC. But to say most MUs would acquire a set of Bracers AC 2, ring +3 and Cloak +3 fairly early in their career...

Note, I did say single digit levels - I meant 8th or 9th. Sorry that wasn't clear.

But, again, going by the AD&D modules treasure lists, I'm not wrong about how common magic, and sometimes quite powerful magic, was.

 

[Helldritch]

You realize that there are multiple suits of +1 Plate Mail in Keep on the Borderlands right? The Moathouse in Temple of Elemental Evil had a +1 suit of Plate Mail. By the time they finished up the first couple of Dungeon Levels in TOEE, there were multiple suits of +1 Plate, a Frost Brand +3 and a shopping list of about 50 magic items. The PC's should be about 5th or 6th level by this point.

Magical plate was not rare at all. It was common as dirt. Good grief, FOLLOWERS came with +1 plate mail.

Keep on the border land was basic. ToEE, had a few magical armors but you were around level 8 and sometimes more when it was over. Basic and AD&D had different assumptions. The amount of high end magical items was not that great. The frost brand was not found be the majority of groups. In fact out of the dozen or so times I DMed the ToEE, only two or three ever found it. Prince Thromel was rescued two times and was once killed because the group fell for the illusion. So yes, there were some high end items, but they were not always found, especially if they were inthe hands of strong NPCs that could flee before getting killed.

In fact, most of my groups were higher than 9th level if they were forced into the nodes. This often meant that the players were almost too high level for the scourge of the slave lords.

The magical item shopping list you must be refering to must be the magical treasure table you could find in the nodes. Hardly a shopping list.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Keep on the border land was basic. ToEE, had a few magical armors but you were around level 8 and sometimes more when it was over. Basic and AD&D had different assumptions. The amount of high end magical items was not that great. The frost brand was not found be the majority of groups. In fact out of the dozen or so times I DMed the ToEE, only two or three ever found it. Prince Thromel was rescued two times and was once killed because the group fell for the illusion. So yes, there were some high end items, but they were not always found, especially if they were inthe hands of strong NPCs that could flee before getting killed.

In fact, most of my groups were higher than 9th level if they were forced into the nodes. This often meant that the players were almost too high level for the scourge of the slave lords.

The magical item shopping list you must be refering to must be the magical treasure table you could find in the nodes. Hardly a shopping list.

Yeah, this. Having relatively recently run ToEE, the party was level 8-9 by the end. And it bears repeating, level 8-9 in 1e was not early game. It was near end game. It was name level, where fighters got strongholds and most campaigns started to end as new campaigns started. We played one more adventure after that and moved on.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Yeah, this. Having relatively recently run ToEE, the party was level 8-9 by the end. And it bears repeating, level 8-9 in 1e was not early game. It was near end game. It was name level, where fighters got strongholds and most campaigns started to end as new campaigns started. We played one more adventure after that and moved on.

On assumptions:

DMG:
Appendix P, creating a party, provides that a MU has a 4% chance, per level, of having magic bracers of AC6. So Level 10 = 40% chance.
The MU has a 10% chance of having bracers of AC 5.

This is a prior thread on the topic:

D&D 1E - Magic items in AD&D, making them and getting them.

Something I've been thinking about regarding magic items in AD&D. I sometimes wonder if the groups I played with were "doing it wrong". . .because while I had a pretty consistent experience between all the various groups I played with. . .I sometimes see people talk about AD&D with a totally...

www.enworld.org

Bracers of Defense, AC 2, were unheard of in my corner of the universe. Then again, some campaigns went full Artifact & Relic (where can I find the Head of Vecna????).

Rules are also interesting depending on how you applied them. For example, item saving throws did not benefit from the general "plus" that the character had, but only the specific benefit of the item; so a ring of protection +1 did not provide a wand of fireballs a +1 to saving throws. The only allowed bonus was that a items had a bonus of +5 to those forms of attack in their own mode (so a wand of fireballs was +5 to fire). And even the general "plus" for some items didn't work on everything (magic armor and shield were useless for poison, metal armor was useless for electricity, and so on).

In general there were a number of rules. The more rules you used, the harder it became.

 

[Helldritch]

Yeah, this. Having relatively recently run ToEE, the party was level 8-9 by the end. And it bears repeating, level 8-9 in 1e was not early game. It was near end game. It was name level, where fighters got strongholds and most campaigns started to end as new99 campaigns started. We played one more adventure after that and moved on.

Level 9... it was not the end of all campaign but I have to admit that it was for a lot of them. Only three groups ever got to Zuggtmoy. The others were happy to storm the last level, slay every baddies in there and manage to seal off the temple again. For these groups, it often meant that they were in the good range for Scourge of the slave lords.

I usually followed ToEE with the dreaded GDQ Queen of spiders. If they were successful and high level enough, one day or rhe other, I would follow with Bloostone pass up to H4. But not many groups went that far. Not many.

 

[Cadence]

Then again, some campaigns went full Artifact & Relic (where can I find the Head of Vecna????

I have a vague recollection of my 14th level ranger "having" the Invulnerable Coat of Arnd... I have completely no recollection on the "getting part".

 

[Aaron L]

I agree, but I’d expand that to say “balance” is primarily the responsibility of the GM, but every player also has a role to contribute.

The great games I’ve been a part of, the fund that ran for years, all had this in common - every player who came to the table was interested in both developing their character but also doing so in a manner that allowed everyone to enjoy themselves and would give each player opportunities to “shine”. people voluntarily adjusted concepts and builds to fit within the framework of the game.

so when I hear gamers going on about needing specific, detailed and at times complex rules to reign in certain players, my immediate response is no, you don’t need all those things to “balance” the game, you need that player to balance their character. And if the player don’t voluntarily do that, you simply don’t need that player.

ABSOLUTELY!

When one player's turn comes up, every other player should sit up, pay attention, and appreciate the current player's actions and express some appreciation and wonder at the cool things they do with their turn in the spotlight. That is the way my group has always tried to do it, and our current DM* will actually begin each player's turn by reiterating how cool the previous players actions were!

So, everything you just said, totally!

*My younger brother, who started DMing about 3 years ago and has turned out to be utterly fantastic. I am still so proud I almost burst. Of course, even though I say "little brother" he is still actually 40.