D&D 5E Never Give Them Unlimited Black Powder

[Ovinomancer]

More like the sapper suddenly finding out his uncivilized savages living in wooden walled settlements at best developed deep-footed stone walls overnight, are tossing alchemical fire down on him, are all resistant to fire, and suddenly his mines have a 50% misfire chance that wasn't there before, because the DM didn't like how he took out the walls of the last settlement.

You're the sapper in my example. You have a self-inflicted problem with gunpowder, and every time someone points out how either the rules or an easy situational change can fix it/ameliorate it you respond by presenting a new reason why that won't work. I mean, when it was pointed out how slow and costly it is to make a relatively small amount of gunpowder, you said magic and high rolls fix that (and no one knows what you're talking about, because there's no such magic in the printed material and high rolls don't do anything by the rules, so more self-inflicted problems). When people pointed out that it's equally easy for the bad guys to get and use gunpowder, you first attempted to restrict discussion to orcs and goblins (because, yeah, if you can the gold and time to make gunpowder you're still fighting orcs and goblins) and waving away all of the many enemies that aren't orcs and goblins. When it was pointed out that there's no reason orcs and goblins can make, or steal, or trade for gunpowder, you said, no, because they're savages and barbaric and can't do those things because... I don't know, lots of "savage" or "barbaric" cultures had trade and often pretty advanced skills and knowledge. You present an ever changing cartoon argument that seems designed not to find a coherent story or game, but instead make sure that you can continue to advance the idea that gunpowder is game-breaking if a GM lets it in. Sure, if you keep shooting yourself in the foot, gunpowder is very dangerous. I recommend that you stop shooting your own foot.

 

[Azzy]

The vast majority of monsters are not immune to gunpowder. that's a fact. The vast number by type are also not going to USE gunpowder, unless you're playing a primary-humanoids campaigns. In short, you're now talking about changing the monsters so gunpowder is useless as a fix...

No, but there are a lot that are resistent/immune to fire/nonmagical damage, others with craptons of hp, etc. Most monsters don't need gunpowder—they have other abilities.

Then suddenly this stuff they jump through hoops being able to make is now available to creatures that live at the level of medieval vikings or Native Americans before the Europeans came. Okie-dokie. Instant civilizing and educational systems, OR, suddenly this hard to make and procure stuff is now being sold to the enemies of the PC's, and all humanity, by unknown parties.

Well, if you introduce gunpowder to your setting and it becomes as common as you suggest, then those creature "that live at the level of medieval vikings or Native Americans before the Europeans came" (which is kinda an icky statement, BTW) will adapt to it (just like Native Americans did). Sounds like your humanoids are very two dimensional if they are the enemies of all humanity. Even then, "unknown parties" have a long history of selling arms to the enemies of their enemies in the real world. BTW, is it hard to procure or commonly available in you scenario—I can't keep up?

So, these examples aren't selling it to me.

Your scenarios aren't selling me, either. So, I guess we're at an impasse.

The supplies are, by default, assumed to be available in most larger settlements, and are certainly within the price range of them.

Wait, I thought that they were hard to procure. So, even if available in most large settlements, in what quantity is it available—to the vendors need to resupply their stocks or does the gunpowder and its ingredient just magically resupply after the PCs break the settlements economy (again).

Your restricting that supply is now making house rules. Just be aware you are doing it.

Given that gunpowder avaiability is not a default in D&D, determining how available it (or anything else) is is not a house rule. Different settlements, cultures, and locations will have different resources.

Gunpowder hoarders are far less dangerous then fireball casting wizards walking around the streets, but if you want to be DM Arbitrary about the threat levels, go right ahead.

Oh? That seems rather counter to your previous assertions.

You need one rank to assist in helping with alchemy in 3e/Pathfinder. NPC's can do most of the work. Referring to 3e rules, higher skill targets for the DC enable you to make more stuff. There are also magical tools that greatly accelerate making alchemical items, as well as that old game breaker, Fabricate.

Well, in 3e, who needs gunpowder when you can be CoDzilla? Oh no, there goes Tokyo! Thankfully, I no longer play 3e or PF. I'm not going to bother looking up the 3e SRD to see the specifics of fabricate, but in 5e it would require proficiency in the appropriate artisan's tools (which the DM will need to decide if it uses alchemist's tools or a new "powdermaker's tools" or some such), and still require the raw material that would otherwise be needed to make it. It's also a 4th-level spell, so there is another resource cost.

As Create Wondrous Items is one of the most popular of feats, making your own tools isn't hard, and they pay for themselves VERY quickly. Artificially not letting them is again a DM Fiat ruling.

CoDzilla. But Create Wonderous Items is used to create magical items, has a cost in both mundane resouces and XP, and you could use it to create more interesting things.

Alchemist Classes also generally can make alchemical items far quicker than normal people, too. They usually have it baked right into the class.

If the rules you use have an alchemict class (I guess that's a PF thing). Again, depending on the rules you use, alchemy way not even be what is used to create gunpowder.

 

[Azzy]

Yeah, but they were making medicine and stuff, not practicing chemistry and making explosives. It's a whole different world of thought and style.

Gunpowder was accidentally discovered by someone that was trying to create a new medicine.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

You need one rank to assist in helping with alchemy in 3e/Pathfinder. NPC's can do most of the work. Referring to 3e rules, higher skill targets for the DC enable you to make more stuff. There are also magical tools that greatly accelerate making alchemical items, as well as that old game breaker, Fabricate.

As Create Wondrous Items is one of the most popular of feats, making your own tools isn't hard, and they pay for themselves VERY quickly. Artificially not letting them is again a DM Fiat ruling.

Alchemist Classes also generally can make alchemical items far quicker than normal people, too. They usually have it baked right into the class.

Just to clarify: What edition are we talking about here? The thread is labelled 5e, but there seems to be some confusion.

 

[Slit518]

Have any of you DMs out there made the mistake of giving the party an arbitrarily large amount of explosives? How much damage did it do, and what got blow'd up?

The players were once sieging a castle which was taken over by orcs when the previous owner of it was on a campaign of his own. The players had found several barrels of gunpowder, they collapsed a large tunnel and room, impeding travel through the area or eliminating it all together.

This room was also filled with dozens of orcs whom were training. None but a few miraculously survived.

The gun powder helped them bypass a large, potential very deadly encounter.

In another campaign the players were chasing a fleet of ships, this portion was seafaring. The ship had a gunpowder room, the players looted the treasure and sunk the ship by blowing up the powder room.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Just to clarify: What edition are we talking about here? The thread is labelled 5e, but there seems to be some confusion.

Any port in a storm?

 

[Coroc]

And you may or may not have experienced this, but from the player's side, this comes across as DM Fiat asshattery.
"Oh, your gunpowder is missing! It got stolen!"
"Oh, it's raining today, your gunpowder is wet and can't be used!"
"Oh, your kegs all swelled up and sprang leaks, and its unusable."
"Oh, you didn't go back far enough, and you're taking incidental damage!" -Note, this can backfire if the PC's realize you just expanded the blast radius of the explosion, and how they can do it.

---You may think that's clever drawbacks, but that's not how the PC's are going to take it. It's going to come across as arbitrary nerfing.
"Oh, your magic sword is missing! it got stolen!"
"Oh, it's raining! you can't use your bow!"
"Oh, your armor is wet and the straps are loose, it won't stay attached!"
"Oh, your sword hilt is slippery, and flies from your hand!"
"Oh, that fireball has a bigger blast radius then you expected, and you're caught in the area of effect!"

---YOur 'clever tricks' are coming across exactly the same way as the other 'believable stuff' I just posted.

Giving you a like because you have got a point here. I have got very mature players, but some of them can really snap if you take away a beloved magic item of their characters by e.g. theft. I kind of tried to point this out by adding the "boring" in paranthesis to the bullets in my original post.

With gun powder it still is different in my oppinion. Is the gunpowder always the same quality? How does it need to be contained or stored?
Is its effect cast in strict game rules like a barrel will cause 7d6 explosion? What about two barrels is it 14 d6 then? What if i take 10 barrels and put the conntent into a big barrel reinforced with iron rings on the outside and filled with shrapnell?

See that is the path i suggest if you encounter problems, and it is fair specific with a volatile chemical mixture like gunpowder.

But let us assume you would still view that as "taking away a good magic item" then i suggest to use the consequences of that item being used:

A fireball can be redirected in last second or spellshaped. An ignited gunpowder barrel though - not so much. You are likely to damage structures e.g. the city wall which should protect from the attacking orc horde, or cause collateral damage. That is absolutely fair game, think of Elric and his sword Stormbringer, which draws the souls out of his friends when he cannot control it.

 

[Coroc]

The vast majority of monsters are not immune to gunpowder. that's a fact. The vast number by type are also not going to USE gunpowder, unless you're playing a primary-humanoids campaigns. In short, you're now talking about changing the monsters so gunpowder is useless as a fix...

Then suddenly this stuff they jump through hoops being able to make is now available to creatures that live at the level of medieval vikings or Native Americans before the Europeans came. Okie-dokie. Instant civilizing and educational systems, OR, suddenly this hard to make and procure stuff is now being sold to the enemies of the PC's, and all humanity, by unknown parties.

So, these examples aren't selling it to me.

The supplies are, by default, assumed to be available in most larger settlements, and are certainly within the price range of them.
Your restricting that supply is now making house rules. Just be aware you are doing it.

Gunpowder hoarders are far less dangerous then fireball casting wizards walking around the streets, but if you want to be DM Arbitrary about the threat levels, go right ahead.

You need one rank to assist in helping with alchemy in 3e/Pathfinder. NPC's can do most of the work. Referring to 3e rules, higher skill targets for the DC enable you to make more stuff. There are also magical tools that greatly accelerate making alchemical items, as well as that old game breaker, Fabricate.

As Create Wondrous Items is one of the most popular of feats, making your own tools isn't hard, and they pay for themselves VERY quickly. Artificially not letting them is again a DM Fiat ruling.

Alchemist Classes also generally can make alchemical items far quicker than normal people, too. They usually have it baked right into the class.

Btw did you know in late Renaissance Europe there was a travelling clerk of the king named the "Salpeterer" (Salpeter is an old name for chemical KNO3, and a main ingredient for black powder). So this Salpeterer had nearly unlimited power in collecting Salpeter, because it got rare and was in heavy demand with the wide spread use of black powder weapons.
One of the resources he did collect was, were people and cattle peed regularly, such as the wooden planks of a houses, backwall or a corner of the bedroom or the floor of a stable. He was authorized to confiscate these wooden planks on which salpeter resign cumulated, even if it meant literally cutting a corner out of a building.

 

[Aelryinth]

Btw did you know in late Renaissance Europe there was a travelling clerk of the king named the "Salpeterer" (Salpeter is an old name for chemical KNO3, and a main ingredient for black powder). So this Salpeterer had nearly unlimited power in collecting Salpeter, because it got rare and was in heavy demand with the wide spread use of black powder weapons.
One of the resources he did collect was, were people and cattle peed regularly, such as the wooden planks of a houses, backwall or a corner of the bedroom or the floor of a stable. He was authorized to confiscate these wooden planks on which salpeter resign cumulated, even if it meant literally cutting a corner out of a building.

yes, the primary source of saltpeter was the crystals that accumulate under any well-aged pile of excrement.
During WWI and II, one of the primary sources of nitrates to make gunpowder were the vast guano reserves under the cliffs of Chile, where billions of seabirds flock to raise their young. Those literal hills of birdshit powered guns on both sides of the war. The ships traveling back and forth from the ports were prime targets for enemy navies.

 

[Aelryinth]

Giving you a like because you have got a point here. I have got very mature players, but some of them can really snap if you take away a beloved magic item of their characters by e.g. theft. I kind of tried to point this out by adding the "boring" in paranthesis to the bullets in my original post.

With gun powder it still is different in my oppinion. Is the gunpowder always the same quality? How does it need to be contained or stored?
Is its effect cast in strict game rules like a barrel will cause 7d6 explosion? What about two barrels is it 14 d6 then? What if i take 10 barrels and put the conntent into a big barrel reinforced with iron rings on the outside and filled with shrapnell?

See that is the path i suggest if you encounter problems, and it is fair specific with a volatile chemical mixture like gunpowder.

But let us assume you would still view that as "taking away a good magic item" then i suggest to use the consequences of that item being used:

A fireball can be redirected in last second or spellshaped. An ignited gunpowder barrel though - not so much. You are likely to damage structures e.g. the city wall which should protect from the attacking orc horde, or cause collateral damage. That is absolutely fair game, think of Elric and his sword Stormbringer, which draws the souls out of his friends when he cannot control it.

Outright theft or Fiat Ka-boom are going to be seen as arbitrary, so many of the recommendations here aren't feasible or in any way linked to gunpowder... they are just linked to explosive weapons, which any wizard or cleric potentially qualifies as.

Playing on the particular weaknesses of gunpowder is fine. Making everyone and their monstrous mother suddenly aware of them is not.