New Chat Site?

[Dragona Nightsky]

Alright people...five minute break...sit back, breathe...here, have some coffee, a copy of the paper, and a healthy dose of Comic Relief ! :whatsthis

No need for everyone to start yanking hair out and shaking fingers at each other!

 

[Jardel_Karabella]

Please understand that I am not here to try and "convince" people to stay or to continually argue why the decision to change software--and to this software in particular--was not an idiotic move made by a company that is bent on spending time and money dedicated to expunging IC roleplay on thier site.

:mymy: Um, I'll avoid anwering that directly thanks.

Nor do I have any further method of assuaging anxiety about security. All I can say is that ichat works *exactly* the same way as Chatspace does in this regard. Both have limited IRC functionality and could be connected to an IRC node but are not and that capability is not enabled. Logically following, if you were okay with ichat security, you should be okay with Chatspace security. More so chatspace as its code is more current.

Even in the I.T. World.... scratch that especially in the I.T. World newer != better. We already know that Chatspace don't deliver on promises and frankly just looking at the new interface I can see some major security blunders (putting password information, even encrypted, into the url you use to activate the chat). And iChat's ROOMS software has what... six to eight years of being tested and debugged?

No, I'm much happier using the old software which time has shown me is secure enough I don't have to worry about someone impersonating me or becoming privvy to my IP.

None of that is reassuring in the least.

What I do want is for the chatters to have the full set of facts with which to make their decision about staying on or finding greener pastures. Early on, some posts were making statements that I knew were addressed by the software, just not in the exact same manner as in ichat.

1) Is it a concern of management's that the new chat appears to be totally unsuited to ISRP, which as I understand it does make up the majority of the chat traffic?

2) Since we are losing pretty much all of the features that made ISRP an atmospheric and interesting place to role play: easily accessible descriptions, top frames full of interesting information, updates to said top frames with daily information in some cases and a chat room that formated the chat as though it were a story rather than a chat room.

What incentive does management see for us to stay with the new software? You don't have to "convince" me, I would just like to genuinely know how you feel our situation will improve with this new software.

3) Since ISRP does make up, at the very least, a large portion of the chat traffic, why is there no attempt to convince us to stay? No special events to lure us in beyond an "open day" and apparently no concern that members are expressing they feel they would rather find "greener pastures"?

After all it seems all this effort in the OOC Settings Information to ensure the selection of setting is one that's most appealing to the patrons is rather wasted if the view on the software is "Take it or leave it.".

Given that our other choice is to stay with Ichat which is buggy, laggy, without support, and has penchant for random deaths at bad times....

Well, the new chat software is also laggy and buggy, and their support apparently seems to lie about what it can and can't do. Random deaths seem to occur at the client end rather than the server, so no real difference there.

And oh, I recently emailed DigiChat, the owners of the iChat ROOMS software who bought out GlobalChat and they tell me they're still supporting the software. They just haven't made any new developments in eighteen months. That's what their Media Relations Manager told me anyway.

@Dragona: While I appreciate your concern, might I suggest that if the discussion here is too intense that you just take a few moments to get a nice cup of tea, or coffee, or whatever it is you do to relax and let people do the same without trying to divert them to an unrelated thread.

Mel has asked for feedback in other forums and she is making the effort to reply here and it things like this do work better if people stay focused on the point of the discussion, and so far everyone has stayed focused on the point of discussion.

Thank you.

 

[Bhryn Astairre]

And oh, I recently emailed DigiChat, the owners of the iChat ROOMS software who bought out GlobalChat and they tell me they're still supporting the software. They just haven't made any new developments in eighteen months. That's what their Media Relations Manager told me anyway.

Grasping the point of this, I had a meander around their website not three weeks back and found it still functionable and in consistent use.

You claim the software is old, but really, just because they haven't updated the software doesn't make it a bad thing. Just maybe there's not much for them to improve upon.

Again, just a random note, but what exactly is stopping people from giving the software back and saying, "Hi, this isn't exactly what we asked for. You gave us some crappy software and therefore, broke terms of agreement with us. You're liable, give us the money back" and then taking that and investing it in ichat and possibly co-ordinating with the new owners of ichat for a better chatting experience instead of forcing Java down everyones throat like its the best thing since sliced bread?

Oh, I promised myself I wouldn't argue anymore on this! Rawr!!!

 

[Darrius of the Guardians]

The quality of the ISRP area is an intercustomer concern? Likely. Not a customer-business concern? I find it would be a tad foolish to believe that. If they aren't concerned, then why have the section at all? Out of the kindness of their hearts? No.

The Quality of the RP of the ISRP area is an intercustomer concern, think about it. Does Mel or anyone who works directly for wizards have a vested stake in the quality of the RP beyond a nebulous relationship between those who use ISRP and the buying of books or is it more something that Customer A and B have a vested interest in?

Because the people who roleplay buy books (though I am certain some genius in management would say otherwise). Either source material or WotC novels. I have scarcely met a single person in those rooms who has not bought/buys either or both. Live! is not the end all, be all for marketing.

Please, I never once stated that their isn't a relationship between ISRP use and buying of books. There isn't a relationship between "quality" RP and ISRP use, indeed some of the worst RP I have seen has being during fetishes that were wildly popular outside of myself.

As for the rhetoric of "it's easier to moderate!" Why would anyone design a promotional product geared toward themselves first instead of the consumer? It's like telling a Dungeons & Dragons R&D team to forget normal formatting rules and styles and then skipping proofreading as well because it's "easier".

No, you are comparing two items of unlike value. Proofreading and standardized formating is akin to moderation, skipping it is not akin to making moderatoin easier.

Let me give you an example, with Bravenet, you can have a chatroom with no moderation, which means someone flooding the screen can't be removed, people who launch vicious personal attacks can't be removed.

Now obviously from a large group (like the ISRP patrons) point of view those chatrooms suck, and the moderation is not easy.

Making hte moderation easier means there will be (in theory) less repeat abuse that slides by as its easier to moderate, it has nothing to do with being simpler, it is more a term of how diffcult it is to handle issues. The easier the handling of the issue the less that slides by.

Buggy, laggy, a penchant for random deaths? Why, for a second there I thought you were describing these very boards. All software has its problems, as will these new chat rooms. The new boards were supposed to be the holy land, yet here we sit without a search function and I'm sure we'll have problems in the future. I admit, you do have me on the "no support" thing though.

These boards are more stable than the Ichat server, as I recall Mel mentioning before about having to hard reset its server, where as the boards can be reset remotely. It may not be so easy to see the diffrence, but its why, during the weekend, if the chat goes down it is normally down until the next monday.

And if by "alter a few things", you mean "throwing a wrecking ball into", then you are very right. Also, iChat would not cause roleplaying to "slowly die". You're making the same presumptions you're accusing Krystal of by making statements like that.

Yes, but Nevine, I have noticed a trend of each month of so some people leaving and never coming back, now in my mind a lot can be attributed to things like no mozzila support, the diffcult of moding (at least presumably there), where as the older crew leaving is basically meaningless, in all honesty. Yes it means for a bit no older patrons to help new patrons aside from the WizOs, but you know what? It also means fewer people who have it in their heads that they are intriniscially important to the site, and refuse all forms of change.

Indeed. I usually enjoy things that don't suck.

Indeed so do I, it sucks that I have to register each one of names twice should I choose to post with it.
It sucks that I can't dynmically look at room list counts and keep my eye on converstations at the same time.
It sucks that should a server go down, someone has to come and manually reset it.

I find this more of an inconvience than most problems with the new Chat.

 

[Darrius of the Guardians]

I'm not belittling Mel... unless of course, she's the one who made the final decisions on this software.

I dont' know if she did or didn't, but then I never stated you are belitting Melanie, just not paying attention to what she is saying.

 

[Darrius of the Guardians]

:mymy: Um, I'll avoid anwering that directly thanks.


Even in the I.T. World.... scratch that especially in the I.T. World newer != better. We already know that Chatspace don't deliver on promises and frankly just looking at the new interface I can see some major security blunders (putting password information, even encrypted, into the url you use to activate the chat). And iChat's ROOMS software has what... six to eight years of being tested and debugged?

Again, we don't know if that was from one verison it could to another it couldn't, we don't know the story aside from them at one point telling Mel it could, before being bought, and now it can't.
[qoute]
No, I'm much happier using the old software which time has shown me is secure enough I don't have to worry about someone impersonating me or becoming privvy to my IP.
[/quote]
So when you go off site, do you turn off your pm's, and goto permissions? I mean half of what makes Wizards secure is its a moderated site, not the client.

None of that is reassuring in the least.


1) Is it a concern of management's that the new chat appears to be totally unsuited to ISRP, which as I understand it does make up the majority of the chat traffic?

From what Mel stated no ISRP was a concern, they bought it in good faith, it didn't live up to what they wanted, they are sticking with the new chatrooms as they have spent eighteen? (I think) months testing and working out problems with and the need for a new client is without a doubt nessarcy.

2) Since we are losing pretty much all of the features that made ISRP an atmospheric and interesting place to role play: easily accessible descriptions, top frames full of interesting information, updates to said top frames with daily information in some cases and a chat room that formated the chat as though it were a story rather than a chat room.

How many people use Cheeta chat that don't have top frames? So obviously top frame != ISRP atmosphere as these people seem to be able to RP safely without them.

I do concour that the descriptions is a problem.

3) Since ISRP does make up, at the very least, a large portion of the chat traffic, why is there no attempt to convince us to stay? No special events to lure us in beyond an "open day" and apparently no concern that members are expressing they feel they would rather find "greener pastures"?

You mean aside from the amount of time Mel spending addressing our concerns I trust?

And of course the simple fact is, ISRP always go through population migrations, I can think of other times that the entire population has threatened evacuation, and yet most are still here.

After all it seems all this effort in the OOC Settings Information to ensure the selection of setting is one that's most appealing to the patrons is rather wasted if the view on the software is "Take it or leave it.".

I'm pretty sure you will find out a miniscule portion of people come to the boards from the chats, and fewer still have been threatneing to leave, that or the chat population is much smaller than I imagine it.

Well, the new chat software is also laggy and buggy, and their support apparently seems to lie about what it can and can't do. Random deaths seem to occur at the client end rather than the server, so no real difference there.

I am willing to bet it was also the Sales staff not their support staff that told Mel it could be moded.

And oh, I recently emailed DigiChat, the owners of the iChat ROOMS software who bought out GlobalChat and they tell me they're still supporting the software. They just haven't made any new developments in eighteen months. That's what their Media Relations Manager told me anyway.

I find this to be fallacious as many many iChat operaters in operation still are abandoning iChat, and if support was there they wouldn't be, I'm going to presume you wouldn't make that up, so the MRM must not of understood or puropesfully mislead you.

*shrugs*

 

[Dontella]

Time Out!

Everyone is forgetting a few things.

1. Again, Software is purchased. If it doesn't function, perhaps as Jardel said, the purchasers should speak to the the vendor about paying money for a service that was not delivered. Either way, this is really a moot point except for whether or not Mel chooses to try and get the product that was purchases, and that is up to Mel and the others alone.

2. This is not an attack, on Anyone. This is not against the staff, or the patrons, or any person. The decision is disliked, yes.. but we do not attack people, we attack ideas.

3. We are moving away from the point.. This should be a place where we an mention aspects of the new server client we would hope to change..

4. We should be working to a compromise, rather than working against one another. A community works together, to make things more enjoyable for as many folks as possible, and that is what community means.

Now.. back to the parts we wish to fix!

1. Description! This is huge and paramount for me.

 

[Bhryn Astairre]

I agree with Donny.

...and yes, the description is the clincher.

Give me space enough to fit all my description, an elephant and half a pigmy tribe in it and I'll be content enough.

 

[Nevine]

Does Mel or anyone who works directly for wizards have a vested stake in the quality of the RP... <snip>

No. But, they have a vested interest in their 10K software and function it is supposed to perform. It is meant to replace iChat. It is meant to be "better" for the Wizards.comMUNITY rooms. It poorly serves this function when it comes to the area with the highest traffic. ISRP.

These boards are more stable than the Ichat server, as I recall Mel mentioning before about having to hard reset its server, where as the boards can be reset remotely. It may not be so easy to see the diffrence, but its why, during the weekend, if the chat goes down it is normally down until the next monday.

iChat goes down over the weekend (or for prolonged amounts of time) once in a blue moon. I'm sure the yearly average of Java vs. iChat outages will be much the same. However, we'll just have to wait and see on that one.

Yes, but Nevine, I have noticed a trend of each month of so some people leaving and never coming back, now in my mind a lot can be attributed to things like no mozzila support, the diffcult of moding (at least presumably there), ...<snip>

Yes. People leave and never come back because of no Mozzila support and the difficulty of moderation. No, no they don't. The majority of people leave because they a.) don't enjoy the environment (read: people) anymore. b.) don't like how the WizO's run things. or c.) dislike the OOC drama. The amount that may leave because of iChat is not enough to base an arguement/point on. I almost can't believe I read that right.

... where as the older crew leaving is basically meaningless, in all honesty. Yes it means for a bit no older patrons to help new patrons aside from the WizOs, but you know what? It also means fewer people who have it in their heads that they are intriniscially important to the site, and refuse all forms of change.

Veiled insult much? Keep the jackassry to a minimum, thanks. Oooh...expletive deleted.

Indeed so do I, it sucks that I have to register each one of names twice should I choose to post with it.

That's the exact opposite of the problem most people are having with the switch.

It sucks that I can't dynmically look at room list counts and keep my eye on converstations at the same time.

Because, typing /roomlist is hard.

It sucks that should a server go down, someone has to come and manually reset it.

Touché.

 

[Jardel_Karabella]

So when you go off site, do you turn off your pm's, and goto permissions? I mean half of what makes Wizards secure is its a moderated site, not the client.

No, I don't have to. You know why? Because nobody can log in with my account. Not only is your question pointless it shows you don't understand what is meant by chat site security. Mel however seems to know what I'm talking about so you should leave answering those concerns up to her.

From what Mel stated no ISRP was a concern, they bought it in good faith, it didn't live up to what they wanted, they are sticking with the new chatrooms as they have spent eighteen? (I think) months testing and working out problems with and the need for a new client is without a doubt nessarcy.

Without a doubt necessary? Well I'm sorry I have a doubt and that's why my questions are directed at Mel, who unlike you, does work for WotC and have an inside view as to the motives behind these decisions.

How many people use Cheeta chat that don't have top frames? So obviously top frame != ISRP atmosphere as these people seem to be able to RP safely without them.

Able to RP without them? Able to. Please note that the conversation is not in regards as to whether it is physically possible to RP on the new chat software but rather whether is it desirable to roleplay on the new chat software and whether it is sufficently desireable that we will choose to come to ISRP rather than another chat site.

And as for your statement on Cheetahchat, what about the many chat patrons like myself who use IE to log in even though we use another browser so that we can see the top frame? Don't we deserve some consideration too?

You mean aside from the amount of time Mel spending addressing our concerns I trust?

And of course the simple fact is, ISRP always go through population migrations, I can think of other times that the entire population has threatened evacuation, and yet most are still here.

No. If Mel's addressing of this issue to date was enough for me I wouldn't be posting here would I? As for threats of population migrations, I suggest you do what I do and let Mel worry about them, she is the boss after all.

I'm pretty sure you will find out a miniscule portion of people come to the boards from the chats, and fewer still have been threatneing to leave, that or the chat population is much smaller than I imagine it.

You know what? Studies show that most people won't write in to complain about a product, they'll just abandon it. Ergo if you have a good number of people writing in to complain about for the same objective reasons it's likely there's a large amount of them willing to just quit for the same reasons.

I am willing to bet it was also the Sales staff not their support staff that told Mel it could be moded.

I don't care if it was the janitor or the CEO who made promises that weren't met, if I company promises you something to get a ten thousand dollar sale and then just outright fails to deliver is at best of questionable credibility.

To put it this way: If they can't even work out what their software does and doesn't do why should we believe anything they say it does or doesn't do?

I find this to be fallacious as many many iChat operaters in operation still are abandoning iChat, and if support was there they wouldn't be, I'm going to presume you wouldn't make that up, so the MRM must not of understood or puropesfully mislead you.

*shrugs*

I find it incredibly fallacious that you seem to think you are in a position to know why any particular chat room operator makes a decision to change software including Wizards of the Coast. Given that companies always have to consider a huge variety of factors that influence their business decisions.

Perhaps they have changed their needs and ROOMS hasn't changed with them? Perhaps another company made a bid and offered a service more like what they wanted? Perhaps the company decided hosting a chat was no longer viable? Perhaps the new Technical Chief Officer prefers using the back end of another chat software?

Including perhaps, just perhaps that the company Digichat is in fact trying to encourage people to use their new software rather than their old, but doesn't want to make bad relations by just dumping the old software?

Kim,

Thank you for taking interest in the ROOMS software. Although ROOMS is an excellent solution, I would recommend that you take a close look at DigiChat as it has some really exciting new features. GlobalChat, even though we support it, hasn't been developed for over 18 months and there aren't any plans to advance the technology any further. I would like to put you in touch with one of our sales executives to tell give you a more detailed explanation of the current differences between DigiChat and ROOMS. I look forward to hearing from you.
Russell Garabelis
Media Relations Manager

You can PM me for Russell's email address, I believe you owe him an apology.

Oh, and incidently:

where as the older crew leaving is basically meaningless, in all honesty.

I'm touched that you have such regard for dinosaurs like me based purely on how long we've been around, honestly. It's nice to know that you care. Of course, I'm hoping that Wizards has a slightly greater concern since old foggies like me tend to be have a greater disposable income and buy more books, thus contribute more to keeping things like... this chat site, running.

A little respect that all I ask.