D&D 5E New Class Brainstorming. Magekinght.

[Zardnaar]

THe idea of this thread is a group effort to design a gish class for 5E. Hopefully its interactive assuming anyone actually wants to contribute.

The PHB doesn't really have any good gish options IMHO. By gish I mean arcane type warrior, the Paladin is great but uses divine magic. The Eldritch Knight takes a long time to come online/isn't that good and trips over its war mage ability at level 11, the Valor Bard is more bard than fighter and is weak at the fighting part. The bladelock has various issues and more or less needs the XGtE hexblade option to function. And unlike the Paladin they are also tripping over things like somatic gestures, the new Paladin spells are mostly V only or you can use them to smite. The warcaster feat is almost a feat tax just to function Or don't use a shield and kind of suck vs the Paladin or be forced to use a two handed weapon. ANd most of them are not proficient in con saves either (except for the EK) and they have no equivalent of spiritual guardians. Put simply to make a good gish play a cleric, paladin, multiclass (FIghrter 1,. warlock XYZ) or get XGtE and pick up hexblade (or MC with it as a Bard/Paladin/Sorcerer etc). Note this is not meant to imply you need the an uber build fish just the 5E PHB ones are clunky and kind of fail conceptually while the Paladin for example is well designed (and possibly over powered).

So using the Paladin and Rangers as templates, I am going to design a half caster that gets around some of these issues while not falling into a 3pp issue of making a over powered or drastically weak class. For power level we have some of the better Paladin archetypes to look at along with a Fighter 1/Warlock XYZ build and the Hexblade. We don't need to match those examples exactly but come close enough IMHO to be viable vs just defualting to playing a Paladin or a XGtE hexblade build.

So stripping out all of the class exclusive bits this is the basic half caster warrior template 5E uses.

[TABLE="width: 500"]
[TR]
[TD]Level[/TD]
[TD]PB[/TD]
[TD]Features[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]+2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]+2[/TD]
[TD]Fighting Style[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]+2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]+2[/TD]
[TD]ASI[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]+3[/TD]
[TD]Extra attack[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]+3[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]+3[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]+3[/TD]
[TD]ASI[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]+4[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]+4[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]+4[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]+4[/TD]
[TD]ASI[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]+5[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]+5[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]+5[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]+5[/TD]
[TD]ASI[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD]+6[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]+6[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]+6[/TD]
[TD]ASI[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]+6[/TD]
[TD]Capstone[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Spells (As Ranger/Paladin (half caster)

This is the basic template the Paladins and Rangers both get. They also both get subclass abilities.

This class will also get fighter saving throws- con+ strength, and I will make it intelligence based as we have plenty of charisma based spellcasting in 5E. martial weapons and heavy amror,+ shields would also be in the basic package since we kind of want and OSR fighter/mage and the Paladin gets heavy armor as well.

For now I'll also give it wizard spells although a specialized spell list might be an option at some point. First I would also like to have the base class sorted and perhaps 2 archetypes I would suggest the Duskblade and Swordmage. The Dusblade is more offensive orientated, the swordmage more defensive. The archetypes will kick in at level 3. I think I will also build the hands free casting part of the war caster feat into the base class since we do not have a specialized spel list yet. It will also need some sort of damage boost like the hunter or paladin smites and it doesn't have spells like hunters quarry either but later on can pick up haste. I don't want to make it to front loaded but at level 1-3 I think giving it a few cantrips and hands free casting makes senses. Perhaps cantrips level 1, hands free casting level 2, archetype abilities level 3.

The other half casters do not get cantrips but they get other things like lay on hands, ranger and paladin semi exclusive spells (domains and bards yay). Also thinking about a smite type ability or arcane strike based off the 3.5 PHB 2 feat and as a way to compete with the Paladin. base damage 3d6 elemental damage, different to the paladin is more base damage but no free extra dice vs undead/fiends, and elemental damage is a reasonably common resistance.

Some sort of bopnus action cantrip casting level 11-14 is also what I am thinking off and not sure of a level 6 ability perhaps an aura enabling extra damage (1d6?) for the duskblade and a defenvive one for the swordmage. Some of the 4E cantrips exist in SCAG, some other 4E powers can be used as inspiration and giving the swordmage aegis seems reasonable. It doesn't 100% need to match the 4E one IMHO but some of the 4E powers can be converted to spells or class abilities and XGtE in effect has encounter powers on some classes in there.

 

[Zardnaar]

Completed Class.

 

[Zardnaar]

Otherstuff (converted spells, whatever etc).

 

[Jester David]

I first thing it needs to do is offer actual variant abilities. Otherwise you could just take the fighter and wizard and alternate levels, and have the same levels of of spellcasting as a 1/2 level magus class. (Or the eldritch knight and wizard, at a 3:1 ratio, which would also be effectively half level but have more hit points.)

So it really needs to DO something that a wizard or fighter cannot.

The easiest way to brainstorm those kind of abilities is to look at the planned flavour and stories: what type of characters will take this class, and what stories are they trying to tell? What archetypes is it invoking from literature?

 

[Hawk Diesel]

I don't mean to be a Negative Nancy, so I really hope you don't take this as such. But since it seems like you are really using the Paladin as the base to generate this new class, would it not be simpler to create an arcane oriented Paladin archetype? You could give them appropriate domain spells (or perhaps even allow them to choose spells off the wizard list that are abjuration or evocation) to give them a more arcane flavor, and this way you wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel.

My thing is that each class, from a design perspective, is built around some kind of unique power or ability. Barbarians rage, Bards have inspiration, druids have wildshape, fighters have lots of attacks and action surge, sorcerers have metamagic and sorcery points, warlocks have pact magic and invocations, Paladins have their aura and divine smite, rogues have sneak attack, monks have Ki and unarmed strike...

Each class has something unique to their design (and perhaps this is why rangers tend to fail against other classes, as they have no real defining characteristic around which to build their identity without including archetypes, forcing them to take Hunter's Mark, or relegating Favored Enemy to a ribbon ability).

I think if you truly wish to create a new class, it would be better to start by building their identifying mechanic. Something that is wholly unique to this class but also interesting enough to build a class around it. Being able to GISH, IMO, is a poor place to start, since that is really the job of the archetype or build rather than a class identity. I think this is why you see the paladin as being a good GISH class, since it is built somewhat like a fighter, but its divine smite is clearly meant to make it a melee combatant that can literally cast and attack at the same time by feeding spell slots into attacks. This is why other options will fail to be as good as a GISH because the action economy for every other GISH attempt makes you choose between weapon attacks or spell attacks. Paladins with Divine Smite are the only ones that can fluidly combine both without impacting their action economy.

So, I would reflect upon and ponder a unique mechanic that can achieve similar results to divine smite and build the class around that. But in all honesty, I think it would be easier to reflavor and tweak the Paladin rather than reinvent the wheel.

 

[cbwjm]

Level 11 will need to be another combat upgrade. Most classes get an offensive boost although I believe that barbarian and monk get defensive boosts at that level. The paladin's improved smite might work adding +1d8 elemental or force damage to each strike of the mage-knight although you might also want to look at something unique. I probably wouldn't bother with duplicating the paladin's smite ability, the more offensive spells of the wizard will make up for that damage although, some kind of mechanic that lets you channel actual spells through your melee weapon might be interesting.

I would also steal war magic/improved war magic from the eldritch knight as it fits this kind of class perfectly.

 

[Zardnaar]

I don't mean to be a Negative Nancy, so I really hope you don't take this as such. But since it seems like you are really using the Paladin as the base to generate this new class, would it not be simpler to create an arcane oriented Paladin archetype? You could give them appropriate domain spells (or perhaps even allow them to choose spells off the wizard list that are abjuration or evocation) to give them a more arcane flavor, and this way you wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel.

My thing is that each class, from a design perspective, is built around some kind of unique power or ability. Barbarians rage, Bards have inspiration, druids have wildshape, fighters have lots of attacks and action surge, sorcerers have metamagic and sorcery points, warlocks have pact magic and invocations, Paladins have their aura and divine smite, rogues have sneak attack, monks have Ki and unarmed strike...

Each class has something unique to their design (and perhaps this is why rangers tend to fail against other classes, as they have no real defining characteristic around which to build their identity without including archetypes, forcing them to take Hunter's Mark, or relegating Favored Enemy to a ribbon ability).

I think if you truly wish to create a new class, it would be better to start by building their identifying mechanic. Something that is wholly unique to this class but also interesting enough to build a class around it. Being able to GISH, IMO, is a poor place to start, since that is really the job of the archetype or build rather than a class identity. I think this is why you see the paladin as being a good GISH class, since it is built somewhat like a fighter, but its divine smite is clearly meant to make it a melee combatant that can literally cast and attack at the same time by feeding spell slots into attacks. This is why other options will fail to be as good as a GISH because the action economy for every other GISH attempt makes you choose between weapon attacks or spell attacks. Paladins with Divine Smite are the only ones that can fluidly combine both without impacting their action economy.

So, I would reflect upon and ponder a unique mechanic that can achieve similar results to divine smite and build the class around that. But in all honesty, I think it would be easier to reflavor and tweak the Paladin rather than reinvent the wheel.

Yeah the war mage thing is coming on board, thinking of letting them cast a bonus action at level 11.

The smite thing I can live without maybe some sort of magical weapon or elemental weapon damage instead. That would kind of give it 3 attacks at level 11 at the cost of a bonus action so not quite as good as the fighter but you could use SCAG cantrips for example. Some sort of big effect at level 6 would also be fine.

How about it deals magic damage at some level, and gets a 1d6 bonus elemental damage at level 3 or so. Could give it a unique spell list and convert 3.5 PHB2 spells and 4E powers into spells.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Yeah the war mage thing is coming on board, thinking of letting them cast a bonus action at level 11.

The smite thing I can live without maybe some sort of magical weapon or elemental weapon damage instead. That would kind of give it 3 attacks at level 11 at the cost of a bonus action so not quite as good as the fighter but you could use SCAG cantrips for example. Some sort of big effect at level 6 would also be fine.

How about it deals magic damage at some level, and gets a 1d6 bonus elemental damage at level 3 or so. Could give it a unique spell list and convert 3.5 PHB2 spells and 4E powers into spells.

I think you are still starting by building the class piecemeal, rather than creating an interesting and unique mechanic around which to build the class and its identity. Here are some example abilities I might use.

Sword Magic
At first level you learn to weave magic into your weapon attacks. As a standard action, you can make a weapon attack. On a hit, you can choose A cantrip you know and apply the secondary effect of the cantrip to the target of your attack.

At level 5, your proficiency in this ability increases. Whenever you make this attack, you can add the damage of the cantrip to the attack.

Reasoning: This turns any cantrip into one similar to Green Flame Blade.

Mageknight's Instrument
Level 1 ability. This should be similar to the Pact of the Blade ability from the PHB, except a bonus action to summon and allows the Mageknight to use their weapon as a arcane focus.

Arcane Smite
Beginning at level 2, you can channel spells into your weapon. As a standard action, you make a weapon attack against an enemy. If the attack hits, in addition to the weapon damage you can choose to expend a spell slot and channel a spell you know into the enemy. The enemy immediately becomes the target of the spell, taking any initial damage or initial effect of the spell. The target does not get a saving throw against the initial effects of the spell. However, if the spell has a duration and allows subsequent saves, the target may make them as normal. Additionally, if the spell is normally an area of effect spell or targets multiple creatures, it only targets the creature you attacked. If the spell requires concentration, you must maintain concentration as normal.

Basically turns a spell into a single target spell and denies them an initial save upon a hit, but gives them subsequent saves if it has a duration (such as slow or hold person).

Not only are these abilities interesting and unique, but it also provides a way for this class to function with intelligence as a secondary or even tertiary stat.

 

[Satyrn]

This might not be the best sort of feedback, but I'm a fan of this guy's work.

There's a paywhatyouwant class on DMsGuild named after Pathfinder's Magus that provides a good take. It could save you the effort, or help you refine your class

I don't quite like the class because it's trying to be too many things at once - subclasses use different ability scores for spellcasting and have completely different spell lists) - so if you were to wind up using the best parts of it while leaving out the rest that'd be awesome.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I suggest something a little more radical. Instead of having set spell slots, have spell slots come on line when you hit something with a melee weapon: 1 hit lets you cast a cantrip once, if you make 2 hits and don't cast a cantrip, you can cast a 1st level spell once, etc. (spells need to be cast before you complete a short or long rest). The maximum level of spell you can cast should be equal to a wizard's at the same level. I would link it to a full caster rather than a half caster, because you aren't going to be casting spells that often compared to either full or half casters. Even assuming the class eventually makes two attacks a round, that is still 5 rounds of combat before you cast a 9th level spell.

This leads to an interesting gimmick for subclasses: each could provide something different magicwise for you to do before you hit something (preferably to better enable you to hit something and to survive the experience).

In my mind, this is the best gish because it makes both the fighter part and the mage part important. It also means this class would shine in hard slogs--when the other casters have ran out of spell slots and reduced to cantrips and regular weapon attacks, this PC is hitting his/her stride.