D&D (2024) New Constructs, Plants, Beasts & Humanoids | 2024 Monster Manual | D&D

[pukunui]

CRAWFORD DOES NOT METION WHAT IMPACT SPECIES TRAITS ADDED TO NPCS HAS ON THE NPCS CR.

I maintain that's because those traits have no impact on CR.

However, that being said, having reread the "Creating a Creature" section in the new DMG ... it's clear to me that those guidelines are expressly focused on ways you can tweak a stat block without impacting its CR. In a number of places, it advices against changing something that would impact CR. And to that end, it tells you not to add a trait that confers THP.

Therefore, strictly following the guidelines in the 2024 DMG, if you want to make any of the generic humanoid NPCs in the new MM into an orc NPC, then you would have to not give them the Adrenaline Rush trait.

You can add things like Darkvision, Fey Ancestry, advantage on saves vs being poisoned, and so on because those are specifically called out as not impacting CR.

 

[Parmandur]

I maintain that's because those traits have no impact on CR.

However, that being said, having reread the "Creating a Creature" section in the new DMG ... it's clear to me that those guidelines are expressly focused on ways you can tweak a stat block without impacting its CR. In a number of places, it advices against changing something that would impact CR. And to that end, it tells you not to add a trait that confers THP.

Therefore, strictly following the guidelines in the 2024 DMG, if you want to make any of the generic humanoid NPCs in the new MM into an orc NPC, then you would have to not give them the Adrenaline Rush trait.

You can add things like Darkvision, Fey Ancestry, advantage on saves vs being poisoned, and so on because those are specifically called out as not impacting CR.

I do think anything in the 2014 DMG table that Crawford mentioned will be fine still, which is why he explicitly mentions it (methinks they are somewhat keyed into this discourse).

 

[Mistwell]

Why would he mention it, when it does not impact CR...?

The 2014 rules are relevant enough that Crawford referenced it in this video as the continuing model: these traits do not impact CR, just as they did not in 2014. They never have.

None of those traits were in the 2014 rules. They're all new.

I think at this point the conversation isn't productive. You claimed Crawford spoke to CR, he didn't so you claimed him not talking about it is evidence it doesn't matter. You claimed 2014 is the rule when it obviously isn't. You claimed these traits meant nothing for 2014 CR when they didn't exist in 2014 and are all new. It's pretty clear we're not only not agreeing, but not even agreeing on what are facts.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Aggressive only increased a 2014 orc's damage output by 2. That's not enough of an increase to affect CR in most cases. The THP provided by the new Adrenaline Rush is only going to be between 2 and 6. That's not generally going to have enough of an impact to alter the CR either.

It depends on the level of the base statblock you are using. It doesn't make a significant difference for a tough, but an orc bandit is significantly tougher than a baseline bandit , probably lasting one more round and doing roughly double the amount of total damage before it goes down.

But the solution is simple, if it makes it significantly tougher, increase its CR by one pip (to 1/4 in this case). CR is all guesswork anyway. Sticking them behind arrow slits would make a much bigger difference to the difficulty of the encounter, and CR has always ignored terrain effects.

Aside from orcs, goliath PC abilities can make a difference to very low level stat blocks, but no other PC species will have any effect on even a low level stat block. Dwarves can detect invisible PCs and are resistant to poison? Neither ability affects CR.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I mean, JC straight-out says in the video to use the PHB species traits to make them fit the fantasy.

IMO, none of the PHB species traits alter the statblocks significantly enough to change CR in a bad way, so what if that makes it a bit more challenging? I say that's good

As I said: orc traits are both not along the guidelines.

My experience experience with orc guards were that they fought as CR 1/4 creatures instead of CR 1/8 standard guards.
The cheat death ability allowed them to survive a well rolled burning hands spell. 2x2 temp hp allowed one orc to survive another round.
The orog berserker (CR 2) with orc traits did not feel more difficult than a standard berserker.

I am not sure how a tough with orc traits will punch. CR 1/2 and CR 1 are very close together (compare a worg with a dire wolf). Probably surviving one or two more hits and being able to close to melee range faster or dash as a bonus action and still attack might be enough to push the tough from CR 1/2 to CR 1.

As I said. Not difficult to reverse engineer. I still think it would not have hurt to have table and some words how to handle PHB traits for humanoids. I mean, some words from JC are nice, but it had only take a single page.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

What does get interesting is if you apply the "human" species to the bandit stat block. In particular, giving them an origin feat.

• Skilled? Perception and Stealth makes them marginally more dangerous, but has no effect on CR.
• Alert? Additional +2 initiative makes them considerably more dangerous, especially to 1st level parties, since if they go first 8 bandits could easily manage a TPK. However, initiative modifications do not affect CR.
• Magic Initiate? eight bandits, all casting Inflict Wounds on the 1st round, could wipe a 3rd level party of four. It probably boosts them to at least CR1.
• Savage Attacker? Was that a tumbleweed blowing past?

 

[Parmandur]

None of those traits were in the 2014 rules. They're all new.

I think at this point the conversation isn't productive. You claimed Crawford spoke to CR, he didn't so you claimed him not talking about it is evidence it doesn't matter. You claimed 2014 is the rule when it obviously isn't. You claimed these traits meant nothing for 2014 CR when they didn't exist in 2014 and are all new. It's pretty clear we're not only not agreeing, but not even agreeing on what are facts.

I claimed that he said to go ahead and add Species traits to NPCs and referenced the 2014 rules for doing so. That he did not mention CR does indicate that, yes, it should not impact CR, quite clearly, since it did not in 2014.

 

[Selas]

I claimed that he said to go ahead and add Species traits to NPCs and referenced the 2014 rules for doing so. That he did not mention CR does indicate that, yes, it should not impact CR, quite clearly, since it did not in 2014.

Still, you should use the custom monster rules as the MM indicates on its first page. So, taking the previously mentioned Adrenaline Rush, you can add it to the monster and remove the THP component; after all, thats what the old Aggressive trait was.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

You could add the charge bonus action lets you move half speed towards an enemy.

 

[Selas]

You could add the charge bonus action lets you move half speed towards an enemy.

Yep, there are all sorts of ways you could skin this cat. All you need is some creativity and flexibility with the guidelines already provided