WotC New D&D movie details? Vecna?!

Urriak Uruk

Debate fuels my Fire
To my knowledge, the dark elves of Scandnavian mythology weren't evel dark-skined. That's a Gygax thing as far as I know.
I wasn't trying to actually make a point here, I was just legit curious as I know little on dark elf mythology. As I assume the casual blockbuster audience will.

Unrelated, I really don't know why this is being debated. Obviously if drow are put in as villains, and are given a foreign accent, the casual blockbuster audience is going to connect it to blackface.

Even if you think that criticism is misplaced, it's probably a lot better for the health of a budding film franchise to sidestep a potential controversy like that? I mean seriously, if I was a film exec, putting an evil dark-skinned race in my new film property is a ticking time bomb that I'd be a complete fool to approve.
 

Azzy

Cyclone Ranger
I wasn't trying to actually make a point here, I was just legit curious as I know little on dark elf mythology. As I assume the casual blockbuster audience will.
I just added that to further drive home the fact that even those that have a casual understanding of Scandinavian mythology would not necessarily draw a connection of between drow and dokkalfar. So that the presumption that the casual movie goer would make that connection is silly at best.
 

Tonguez

Adventurer
To my knowledge, the dark elves of Scandnavian mythology weren't evel dark-skined. That's a Gygax thing as far as I know.
Theres some debate on that though.The Prose Edda refers to Svartálfar (Black Elfs) which as noted above might just be another term for Dwarf.
The Prose Edda also has a line where the Dökkálfar (Dark Elfs) are described as "blacker than pitch" however Jacob Grimm dismisses Snorri’s interpretation and instead suggests that the ’black’ is more metaphoric and that dark elfs were dingy and pale (and opposed to the Light elfs).
 
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IIRC The dark elves in germanic mythology are largely a footnote and not meaningfully distinct from the dwarves in any case
Agreed. In either case they are too any intelligent person fairly obviously not black people anyway. The norse didnt exactly have much contact with africans that they would base a mythological race on them anyway.
 

LuisCarlos17f

Adventurer
Dragonborn appeared in "Draces of Dragons" in 2006. And I dare to say the idea of the dragonborn is linked to the dargonkins, a previous monster, as source of inspiration. I mean the dragonborn are a version of the dragonkins to be used as PC race by the players.

And in elder scrolls games it appeared in 2011, didn't it?
 

Tonguez

Adventurer
Agreed. In either case they are too any intelligent person fairly obviously not black people anyway. The norse didnt exactly have much contact with africans that they would base a mythological race on them anyway.
Harald Sigurdsson, King of Norway from 1046 - 1066 spent time in Constantinople (from around 1034) where he served as a Commander of the Varangian Guard and particpated in raids across the Mediterannean, including against North Africa. One legend is that in africa he seized 80 castles and killed the ‘King of Africa’ in single combat.
The point being that the Norse were quite aware of Africa and had encountered Africans

As to drow, I like the scene in American Gods where Czernobog is talking about his brother Belobog, he makes the point that although there are no Black people in his homeland still he is called the black god and considered accursed, cruel and associated with the devil whereas his brother is considered fair and good. Thats the original metaphoric association of Black, not its contemporary association with high melanin levels
 
Harald Sigurdsson, King of Norway from 1046 - 1066 spent time in Constantinople (from around 1034) where he served as a Commander of the Varangian Guard and particpated in raids across the Mediterannean, including against North Africa. One legend is that in africa he seized 80 castles and killed the ‘King of Africa’ in single combat.
The point being that the Norse were quite aware of Africa and had encountered Africans

As to drow, I like the scene in American Gods where Czernobog is talking about his brother Belobog, he makes the point that although there are no Black people in his homeland still he is called the black god and considered accursed, cruel and associated with the devil whereas his brother is considered fair and good. Thats the original metaphoric association of Black, not its contemporary association with high melanin levels
yeah. the dark elves go back way further than that. your logic claim doesn't follow. the norse didn't construct the idea of dark elves from a time in the 1000s. norse myths are often very old myth indeed.
 
also mediterraneans and such are not subsaharan africans. generally they aren't thought of as darkskinned. the ones that are are the exception generally. they had olive skin. besides, this is a case of "dark" being associated with evil, not being associated with subsaharan african genes.
 
Dragonborn appeared in "Draces of Dragons" in 2006. And I dare to say the idea of the dragonborn is linked to the dargonkins, a previous monster, as source of inspiration. I mean the dragonborn are a version of the dragonkins to be used as PC race by the players.

And in elder scrolls games it appeared in 2011, didn't it?
TESV's dragonborn is funny because its like an n'le entendra.
 

Tonguez

Adventurer
yeah. the dark elves go back way further than that. your logic claim doesn't follow. the norse didn't construct the idea of dark elves from a time in the 1000s. norse myths are often very old myth indeed.
There were ‘subsaharan africans’ in ancient Rome, the logic is that the Vikings had contact with Africa and by 1000 there were a enough darked skinned Africans in North Africa for them to be a noticeable demographic. (Islam reached Somalia in the 7th century and West Africa by 1000s and those nations were often trading with the Mediterannean)

Moreover our modern knowledge of Svartalfar comes from the Prose Edda which was composed in the 13th century (c 1220), but of course we have no idea if what the image Snorri had in his head was or if it was influenced by Harald Hadrada’s time in Africa :)

Anyway we’re veering off topic and personally I’m happy with Jacob Grimms metaphoric interpretation of black v light morality.
 
yeah. the dark elves go back way further than that. your logic claim doesn't follow. the norse didn't construct the idea of dark elves from a time in the 1000s. norse myths are often very old myth indeed.
That's not what was said or implied. They where simply rubbishing your claim that "Norse never came into contact with Africans", not challenging your claim that "dark elves where not based on Africans".

If you use a falsehood to try and back up a truth it weakens your argument, it doesn't strengthen it.

But what things meant to people who lived fifteen hundred years ago is irrelevant. All that matters is what things mean to people who live in 2019.
 
That's not what was said or implied. They where simply rubbishing your claim that "Norse never came into contact with Africans", not challenging your claim that "dark elves where not based on Africans".

If you use a falsehood to try and back up a truth it weakens your argument, it doesn't strengthen it.

But what things meant to people who lived fifteen hundred years ago is irrelevant. All that matters is what things mean to people who live in 2019.
my quote was "The norse didnt exactly have much contact with africans that they would base a mythological race on them anyway." and that is not a falsehood. they didn't have the kind of contact likely to create stories about an entire mythological race.
 
my quote was "The norse didnt exactly have much contact with africans that they would base a mythological race on them anyway." and that is not a falsehood. they didn't have the kind of contact likely to create stories about an entire mythological race.
One could argue that "not much contact" is exactly the right about of contact to create a myth about a race. Norse traded with Mediterranean cultures. People with very black skin would have been known, but been uncommon, in the Mediterranean. One might even call such people "adventurers". So dark elves could have been based on them. They weren't, but they could have been. Your reasoning is false, even if your conclusion is true.

My theory is that they (and many similar stories) are actually based on race memories from the time when Homo Sapiens and Neanderthals lived along side each other (ironically, the human incomers would have had the dark skin, the Neanderthals light). But there is no evidence to support this theory, nor would I expect there to be.
 

Chaosmancer

Adventurer
That's completely beyond the scope of tgis conversation. We are talking about which franchise used the term "dragonborn" first
But that honestly doesn't matter.

The way copyright and trademark laws work (I am not a lawyer but I've run into the discussion enough), there are a few things that need to be met.

First, you need to actually put in the copyright paperwork. If they put in the paperwork to copyright it when they titled Tiber Septim (whoever that is) back in 2002 then there would have been a case already.

Secondly, you need to defend your copyright. This is one of the big reasons why you get "unreasonable" cease and desists from companies. If they do not pursue the defense of their copyright, they lose it, and it becomes public domain. (I'm sure it is far more complicated than that, being a legal thing, but it plays into the "there hasn't been a lawsuit" part)

And Finally, there are some things that you simply cannot copyright. And the term "dragonborn" as in "born of dragons" is probably one of them. You cannot copyright Dragon, they have existed in stories and art since before paper existed. Therefore, you could not copyright the idea of being born of a dragon, or having the blood of a dragon. In fact, warriors who have the blood or power of dragons go back to at least Sigurd of Germanic myth. Again, probably before the invention of paper.

They can't even copyright "warrior who has dragon blood and speaks the dragon language" because all of those things are non-copyrightable. You might as well try and copyright "warrior who is a prince and speaks to animals" it just isn't going to work.

So, it doesn't matter if the words "dragonborn" were first used by WoTC, TSR, or Bethesda. It is too generic a pairing of words to be copyrighted.
 

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