• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

new death save == leave your buddy on the floor for 3 rounds?

Simonides

First Post
Wow. Don't get me wrong, I love statistics and math as much as the next geek, but all of these calculations are happening in a vacuum. What is going on in the battle while the person is on the floor having X% chance of stabilizing, dying, or recovering?

The party has lost 1/4 - 1/6 of its firepower. Given that encounter balance in 4E hinges on the baseline of one level appropriate creature per PC, the balance of the encounter has just been shifted. If most of the monsters are dead, finishing the battle might be a priority but it will also be a lot easier to get the unconscious guy up and healthy. If most of the beasties are still alive, the danger of losing a character for any portion of the fight is more substantial, but it will also probably be harder to raise the guy up again. The guy on the ground fills a role in the party and teamwork is supposed to be a big deal in 4E. So what role was just vacated by the downed member? Is the party functioning without a defender now? A leader? It is supposedly very difficult or impossible to return from the dead during the heroic tier and much easier at epic tier. What level is the party playing at? Will someone be losing a character forever or will the guy just wander back from the Shadowfell in a few hours? Are the monsters in battle the sort who will finish off a downed opponent? Hold the opponent hostage (surrender or I gut him)? If the fight is going poorly and the party is already thinking about retreat, will they leave their ally in the hands of the enemy? If the party is deep in enemy territory and miles from a safe zone, can they afford to risk losing a member permanently?

And finally: how do the various players play? Do they view character death as something to be avoided at all cost or are they more casual about rolling up new characters?

In short: the statistical likelihood of a character living or dying does not take into account the consequences of leaving the guy on the ground, trying to stand him up again, or the risk of letting him die. In 3.5, the decision was a lot more rote for a number of reasons (retreat was often not a viable option, there was a definite timer on death, coup de grace was a full-round action and often not worth wasting an enemy round on especially given the baseline encounter was one monster vs. the party, and standing the guy up only made him more likely to go down again or die), but I suspect that the 4E decision will be much more situational.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

loisel

First Post
Amateurs...

All y'all with your amateur hour tiny simulations can go eat pie. I have computed the exact (as in, no simulation, no rounding) probabilities of death of survival, given the number of bleeding counters you currently have, as well as the expected number of rounds until you live/die.

Long story short, starting with 0 bleeding counters, you will live with probability 27.1% (exactly) and die with probability 72.9% (exactly). Whichever way it goes, it will take 5.42 rounds (expected, exactly) before it comes to a dénouement.

Details are in this quick PDF I whipped up. http://www.math.temple.edu/~loisel/dnd4e.pdf

Edit: I see that jaelis above has probably done a similar computation. But I can also tell you that if you have one bleeding counter, your odds of winning drop to 19% and the expected duration is 3.8 rounds, and with two bleeding counters, the odds of winning are 10% with a duration of 2 rounds.
 
Last edited:

hong

WotC's bitch
stripes said:
Code:
                                                                           LLLL
                                                                       LLLLLLLL
DDDDDDD                                                             LLLLLLLLLLL
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD                                             LLLLLLLLLLLLLL
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD                               LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD                    LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD              LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD        LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD     LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD   LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD  LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

Ooh, breasts!


Hong "not a statistician for Easter" Ooi
 

komi

First Post
jaelis said:
Don't know if anyone's done the exact calculation yet, but I get that the probability of eventually dying is exactly 729/1000, and of eventually recovering is 271/1000.

(Assuming you bleed on 1-9, nothing on 10-19, recover on 20.)
That's exactly correct. And the expected number of rounds to live is precisely 6.
 

komi

First Post
loisel said:
Whichever way it goes, it will take 5.42 rounds (expected, exactly) before it comes to a dénouement.
5.42 is the expected number of rounds before the game ends. But you might be alive or dead. However, the expected number of rounds before you die (given that you do die) is actually 6. This seems more meaningful in game, since we don't care how long it takes for someone to stabilize (except perhaps for curiosity).

By the way, I liked your solution to the problem. I came up with the same answer (see post #28), but I did it with brute force. :) I haven't used Markov Chains much.
 

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
baberg said:
This talk of stabilization and role/roll playing has me wondering which way would be "best" to handle the rolls - secret DM rolls or player rolls. Maybe let the PC who's bleeding out see the rolls just so he knows you're not screwing him, and to maybe add tension, but if I'm playing as a still-alive PC and know that my buddy on the floor has been rolling well, I'm going to be more anxious to end the fight quickly and then worry about healing him, instead of immediately rushing to do first aid.

This probably comes back to the whole "gamist/simist" thing again though. Simulation wise, secret DM rolls are best. Gamism wise I'd like to know exactly what the odds are that my buddy's going to bleed out next round.


Well, on the first failed roll they see blood oozing from under him...on the second failed they see blood spreading across the floor...should clue them in...in game context.

/using your "bleeding out" example.
 

Revinor

First Post
SkidAce said:
Well, on the first failed roll they see blood oozing from under him...on the second failed they see blood spreading across the floor...should clue them in...in game context.

And then after 5 minutes it turns out that he was only tired, because after using 4 healing surges there is no sign of being wounded in any way...

I would rather see negative hp and death rolls in terms of shock rather than physical bleeding - less continuity problems later if he stands up completely healthy.
 

GoLu

First Post
deathdonut said:
So the situation only occurs in (9/19)^2. On the third round, it's possible to die or stand up. That means the total answer is: (9/20)*(9/19)^2

How do you die on the third round if you haven't already rolled two 'strikes', one on each of the two previous rounds?

[edit]: Er... I think I see what's up. Lots of confusion about what exactly the question was. Your chance of dying on the 3rd round, assuming you just went down, is .45 x .45 x .45 = roughly 9%. But if you have already been down 2 rounds (thus having anywhere from 0 to 2 strikes against you already), it's slightly higher because we've eliminated the possibility of rolling a 20 on either of the first two rounds.
 
Last edited:

Revinor

First Post
deathdonut said:
Instead, the question I tried to answer is: What is the chance of dying on the THIRD round assuming you have been unconcious for TWO.

Then I fully agree with your numbers.

Problem is, what is the use of such question? If you are in third round and you know you have not stabilized yet, you will also know how many 'strikes' you got so far. If you have a DM who is not announcing strikes on death rolls, he will also probably not announce autostabilization.

Unless I'm confused again and on stabilization you wake up?
 


Remove ads

Top