New Design & Development: Paladin Smites!

[Smerg]

I don't like the mechanics of how these smites work. I hit you, so my friend's sucking gut wound immediately heals up. What? This is too ridiculous for me to stomach. I think I'll pass on 4th edition.

Ok, so I pray for my divine patron to heal my friend (or myself) while I kick the cajones out of some bad guy.

I think this is a pretty good sacrifice situation. It works far better then some bat guano as the patron knows they are getting something in return for the offering of good for their champion brandishing the flag.

I suppose that this would make more sense if I had to spend a whole round praying and doing nothing while the Paladin should be doing some justice on the evil people.

I can fling lightning bolts, summon meteors, invoke words of power, but it is somehow non-sensical to heal people at a distance? It is somehow non-sensical to actually be rewarded for serving your divine patron? It is somehow non-sensical that you don't have to stop clobbering the bad guys to go and bandage someone?

This is a good mechanism that was shown being used by the cleric in the battle with Red Dragon D&D article. If you have some new problem, I am truly amazed as that article came out two months ago. I think it is good that we are not forced to have heal bots but people that can heal while they do other activities. People that can keep fighting instead of forced to sit on the side lines and go Rah Rah as the other people roll the dice.

 

[Stormtalon]

What about this is poor gamist design? It seems like good gamist design, from what little we have seen.

I think the intimation is that it's gamist design and therefore it is awful; at least, that's the way I read it.

I'd argue that any mechanic that's stripped of relevant flavor, as these appear to have been, will always resemble gamist design more than simulationist. There's many, many ways you can describe these abilities such that they make sense and that their powers flow naturally from the paladin as a charismatic holy defender.

 

[Bishmon]

The lack of imagination in this camp simply apalls me.

Come on, this is just not needed. You can make your point without this stuff.

 

[Abstraction]

Considering the sheer number of abilities/powers that will need to be described for 8 classes times 30 levels, I think page count might be a bit of a concern. I'm sorry, but you might have to come up with your own flavor.

 

[Xyl]

Okay, pulled up the WotC forum post with the Spined Devil stats... *snip* Any other observations based on revisiting these stats?

Just one: WotC has stated repeatedly that monster stats are not calculated the same way as PC stats, so analyzing the Spined Devil stat card won't tell us anything certain about PCs. In particular, I think the devil's attack bonus, damage, and defense numbers were just picked out of thin air (or more likely, from a table).

 

[Stormtalon]

Very true. He still can't really handle things at range. But what's different is now that inability to handle things at range will in some way affect his ability to protect and/or heal his allies, because he now has protection and healing abilities that are inextricably linked to attacking enemies in melee, and that just doesn't make sense to a number of people.

The thing is, we've only seen the paladin's smite abilities which would naturally be tied to clobbering things. The ability to smite is simply one of the things they can do, and you simply can't generalize based off of these three smites we've seen. He may very well have ways to buff and heal allies without having to hit things.

Still, he's a Defender, a front-line combatant and that's where you should expect a goodly number of a paladin's powers to be focused. Additionally, he is powered by his faith and his connection to his deity, so miraculous abilities tied to his combat skills also make sense.

I really think part of the key to these abilities is to look at the controlling stat. Two out of the three of these feed off of Charisma (and the 3rd off of Wisdom), which has been described (at least in 3e, and I can't see that changing much in 4e) as being force of personality and an inner strength. So it's not something inherent in the blows themselves that's doing the extra effects -- it's something within the paladin himself: his strength, his will, his conviction in his beliefs. Something within him stirs his allies to overcome injury, or his enemies to falter for a brief moment.

Had the abilities keyed off of Strength or a physical stat, I'd be scratching my head, too -- but they key off of the mental abilities, and that's enough to realize that they do indeed work and make sense.

 

[Clavis]

I'm not sure how to put this...

There is no Cabal. WotC WILL NOT break into your house and torch your old D&D books. Nor are you going to be held at gunpoint while playing OFFICIAL DUNGEONS & DRAGONS(TM) Fourth Edition Rules, D&D(TM) Miniatures, and role with D&D(TM) Dice. And they certainly don't sit in Redmond having EVILGASMS about how dragonborn, warlords, and the Shadowfell is going to royally screw up some random players homebrew world.

At the expense of being called on badwrongfun, I think you might have better luck (and much better companionship) posting here rather than raising your blood pressure in the FOURTH EDITION forum.

Just sayin.

Oh c'mon. What's the fun of talking to people who all agree with you? A conversation is most enjoyable when it includes people of differing points of view.

For the record, I'm not some kind of 1st Edition grognard. I wanted a new edition of D&D, to fix its accumulated crud and streamline its rules. I was also hoping that WOTC was going to undo the wrong of 2nd edition. I eagerly bought and tried to play 3rd edition. I didn't like watching the look of boredom and frustration on player's faces as they spent 2 hours trying to make characters. I didn't like the agonizingly slow combat rules that even WOTC now says were a bad idea. My problem is not with innovation in D&D; my problem is with WOTC creating an entirely new game, and then labeling it D&D.

As for EVILGASMS, they actually sound like fun. I'll have to try them sometimes.

 

[Stone Dog]

I'm hoping that the PHB has a small paragraph at the beginning saying something like

"Smites primarily call upon divine power to deal extra damage to enemies. However, the divine power will often bleed into secondary effects designed to aid the paladin and his allies in combat."

I'm also hoping that the paladin will be shown to have healing and protection talents as well so that when people say "Why can't my paladin heal without hitting something" or "why do I need to attack to offer a defense bonus" we can point to Lay on Hands or Protection from Evil.

Smites are one thing the paladin can do. Odds are they aren't the ONLY thing the paladin can do.

 

[Masquerade]

It would be a simple house rule to say that paladins can activate any of their smites' secondary effects as a standard action, consuming that encounter's use of that smite.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

This is not actually true. I myself receive a small but pleasant stipend from Wizards of the Coast (TM) for breaking the occasional knee in the alley behind my Friendly Local Gaming Store (TM). We get official D&D (TM) tire irons.

I'm not supposed to tell you that, but the last time their lawyer tried to enforce the D&D (TM) Non Disclosure Agreement against me, I broke the guy's knee.

Oooo, FASA used to have those. One of their snipers got my Shadowrun GM coming out of the Marvin Center at GWU back in '94.

To be fair, he was kind of a (bleep) GM.

Brad