New Design & Development: Paladin Smites!

[Celtavian]

re

Well, I think I'll be waiting for the video game. I don't like the rules from a PnP RPG perspective. Paladin smites don't have much verisimilitude in my book. Looks like the DnD designers were told to focus on rule creation that was very friendly to the making of a video game. I think I'll be waiting for the video game rather than upgrading to 4th edition.

Strikes that heal your group or give AC? C'mon now. That is not in anyway interesting from a story book standpoint. It has absolutely nothing to do with simulating a fantasy holy knight. The characters I see as holy knights are Lancelot and Galahad with strong ideas of chivalry and nobility. Now it is some class that hits things and gives benefits to group members. Straight video game paladin.

Honestly, I understand it. If I were a businessman that owned PnP DnD, I would focus on designing rules for a video game as well. After seeing the success of WoW and Everquest, the owners of DnD could make alot more money designing a very good video game than they can designing a very good PnP game.

The main reasons DnD hasn't dominated the fantasy MMORPG market is because they had game designers that weren't focused on using the source material and creating game rules friendly to an MMORPG game. Now they are correcting the game rule error in 4th edition.

We'll see if DnD can get the game rules right and then do a proper job with the game content. We may not get a great PnP RPG out of 4th edition, but it wouldn't surprise me if we get the best MMORPG DnD has ever made.

Very smart of the marketing department. If I had owned DnD, I'd be torn between focusing on a MMORPG and making a great PnP game. In the end, I'd probably go for the MMORPG market as well since that is where the big money is.

Hasbro (That's who owns them right) finally decided to get the most out of this hobby game they purchsed from WotC. Smart move on their part. A successful MMORPG would be huge money if Hasbro puts good game designers on it and follows one of the successful models like Warcraft of the Orginal Everquest and uses the content advantage they have to dominated the market. We'll see if Hasbro is willing to put the money in to get the most out of their investment.

 

[MerricB]

Well, I think I'll be waiting for the video game. I don't like the rules from a PnP RPG perspective. Paladin smites don't have much verisimilitude in my book.

Neither does magic, really. From your storybook standpoint, Lancelot and Galahad should be pure fighters with only an ability to hit things.

The "Hit and Heal" or "Hit and Buff" is not being introduced because of computer games. It's being introduced because of the serious problems that have been demonstrated over thirty years of D&D and never really been addressed: few people want to play the cleric.

3e tried to fix this by going "you're ultra-powerful, Mr Cleric!", but it didn't work. The problem isn't the number of abilities the cleric has, it is the limited number of actions they get.

The hope that Wizards have is that by combining two action types (Hit & Heal; Hit & Buff), they'll make the leader role more attractive to players.

Cheers!

 

[KingCrab]

3e tried to fix this by going "you're ultra-powerful, Mr Cleric!", but it didn't work. The problem isn't the number of abilities the cleric has, it is the limited number of actions they get.

It will be interesting to see what 4e does choose to do with the cleric if there really is enough healing coming from other sources. Will they combine the cleric's healing with other actions as well, or will the cleric take it's role as "leader" and somehow be focused on just providing bonuses for other characters?

 

[MerricB]

It will be interesting to see what 4e does choose to do with the cleric if there really is enough healing coming from other sources. Will they combine the cleric's healing with other actions as well, or will the cleric take it's role as "leader" and somehow be focused on just providing bonuses for other characters?

Indeed.

My personal take is that you have two Leader classes.

The Warlord will be more buffing, the Cleric will be more healing - even though every class has enhanced healing, the Cleric will be significantly superior. You might be able to survive without a Cleric, but you'd prefer to have one around.

Also, the Cleric will have active spells as well, in addition to some nice anti-undead abilities.

An active spell is like Hold Person, although that actual spell will probably not be in its current form, rather than the "passive" spells like Bull's Strength.

Cheers!

 

[Shazman]

Ok, so I pray for my divine patron to heal my friend (or myself) while I kick the cajones out of some bad guy.

I think this is a pretty good sacrifice situation. It works far better then some bat guano as the patron knows they are getting something in return for the offering of good for their champion brandishing the flag.

I suppose that this would make more sense if I had to spend a whole round praying and doing nothing while the Paladin should be doing some justice on the evil people.

I can fling lightning bolts, summon meteors, invoke words of power, but it is somehow non-sensical to heal people at a distance? It is somehow non-sensical to actually be rewarded for serving your divine patron? It is somehow non-sensical that you don't have to stop clobbering the bad guys to go and bandage someone?

This is a good mechanism that was shown being used by the cleric in the battle with Red Dragon D&D article. If you have some new problem, I am truly amazed as that article came out two months ago. I think it is good that we are not forced to have heal bots but people that can heal while they do other activities. People that can keep fighting instead of forced to sit on the side lines and go Rah Rah as the other people roll the dice.

If he hit an enemy with a smite, and as a benefit could say a brief healing or protection prayer, as a swift action, I would have no problem with it. I could even almost buy allies getting temporary hitpoints from a morale boost at seeing the paladin's spectaclular hit. What you have here are two effects coming form one action that are completely disconnected. It would be like a wizard hits you with his staff, and for no reason at all, a column of fire roasts some enemies 20 ft away. No spellcasting or power words, or activating the staff. It just happens. That is ridiculous, and I can't stomach it. You have to have a bit of versimilitude even in a fanstasy game, like D&D. Prayers or spells heal or damage, melee attacks should never heal unless it's a touch attack with a healing spell.

 

[Smerg]

It will be interesting to see what 4e does choose to do with the cleric if there really is enough healing coming from other sources. Will they combine the cleric's healing with other actions as well, or will the cleric take it's role as "leader" and somehow be focused on just providing bonuses for other characters?

Kundum in his report on classes stated that healing works better in the presence of a Cleric. This could be either a multiplier or it could be the level or wisdom bonus of the cleric affects healing spells used within a certain range of them. They are thus living altars of their faith or walking beacons for their divine patron.

An interesting and good imagery.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Or maybe, the paladin can simply say: "Alright I'm going to use my smite, but I'm not going to attack anything, I'll use up a smite but can I just get the AC bonus?"

Ooorrr, even more likely, he'll say something like "I cast cure light wounds."

Just sayin'.

 

[grimslade]

If he hit an enemy with a smite, and as a benefit could say a brief healing or protection prayer, as a swift action, I would have no problem with it. I could even almost buy allies getting temporary hitpoints from a morale boost at seeing the paladin's spectaclular hit. What you have here are two effects coming form one action that are completely disconnected. It would be like a wizard hits you with his staff, and for no reason at all, a column of fire roasts some enemies 20 ft away. No spellcasting or power words, or activating the staff. It just happens. That is ridiculous, and I can't stomach it. You have to have a bit of versimilitude even in a fanstasy game, like D&D. Prayers or spells heal or damage, melee attacks should never heal unless it's a touch attack with a healing spell.

This is a disconnect for me. The attack + swift action 'spell' is ok, but eliminating the swift action and combining the prayer with the attack lacks verisimilitude? How is Vancian magic considered verisimilitude? The concept of a swift action is kludge to fix the shortcomings of the limited action turn based sytem. Combining effects to attacks is a different concept.
With the 4E smites, the attack IS the prayer or spell or powerword. It is the channel that brings the effect (+AC, healing or binding) into being. In 3E this was already the case, the paladin attacked and divine energy powered extra damage and a greater chance to hit into the strike. Should smite have been rewritten to the attack + a swift damage boosting prayer?
All of spellcasting is changing. Vancian slots are greatly reduced. Wizards use foci now. There are secondary effects from the use of different powers. These smites are a small taste of what is to come. 4E will not be everyone's cup of tea, but I like what I am seeing so far.

 

[D.Shaffer]

But this goes back to my original thought: I can't justify, to myself, that this power can "bleed through" as a healing affect to allies. I could see my allies becoming inspired, or my enemies intimidated, with the fact that I wield divine power, but inspirational healing just doesn't sit well with me..

To be fair, the Wizards description doesnt give much fluff text at all for it. All we have is a base description 'smites allow a paladin to deliver a powerful blow with the character's weapon of choice, while layering on some divine effect' and pure game mechanics. Any fluff you're putting behind it, ATM, is all your own creation...and you've already done the job of describing a way that it'd work for you...so why not use that?

The paladin shouts out his god's name, calling upon him to close the wounds of his fellow warrior against darkness, and to empower his blade to smite the hell out the one before him. Heck, think of tradtional prayers...how many of them call upon a deity to do just ONE thing? Usually it's some combination of 'Make my opponents hurt a lot' with 'keep my guys from dying'

 

[Gloombunny]

If it helps, don't think of the smite as an attack with a buffing side effect. Think of it as a spell with two effects - a buff for an ally, and charging your weapon with divine energy. And, like touch spells that give you a "free" attack after you cast them to charge up your hand, using the smite gives you a free attack with the charged-up weapon. (Unlike touch spells, though, the charge gets used up even if you miss. C'est la vie.)