New Feats

[Crothian]

Trying to make Heavy armor more useful is a good thing. I've got nothing against that. I think that the armor feat is to strong. At least come up with a decent set of prerequites. AS it is now. It is to strong.

 

[Shinsetsu]

Hey Geoff,

I guess I inferred the "sneak attack applies to only one attack" thing from the shuriken rules- where the extra damage applies to only one shuriken per despite multiple attack rolls and attacks (my poor rogue players- how I've decieved them). If what you're saying is true, then maybe another feat should be required to allow an off-hand attack during a sneak attack. That really is too powerful for a low level feat. Just a suggestion:

Serpent Strike- use off hand during sneak attack
Prereq.: Double attack, BAB +12, Sneak attack 2d6

Crothian, maybe the extra feat prerequisite that I suggested would make this a more balanced part of a feat tree. Even if you use two attacks during a spring attack, if you have to devote four feats and have a bab +10 to do it, then I say it works. Any further comments?

 

[Ravellion]

Since when does no one use heavy armour? In three campaigns, everyone used heavy armour except those classes that actually lost something.

I think all your characters have one level of Ranger or Barbarian or something, at least that explains why you would like to see some heavy armour again. Clerics, Paladins and Fighters IMC go for Full Plate ASAP, and it saves their lives a helluva lot more than 10 ft. extra movement ever will.

Anyway, that feat is just plain silly. Sorry, but granting the abilities of an 11000 GP item as a general feat?

How about this one?

----------------
Deflective personality
Requisites: +1 BAB, +2 Base will save.
Character gains a +3 deflection bonus to AC.
----------------

This feat is actually less broken than your feat, because it at least doesn't stack with rings of protection.

With your feat in effect, I wouldn't see a player wearing LIGHT armour anymore! Why should they, one feat and they get 2 or 3 AC extra, by wearing medium armour that counts as light!

Now, break this up in 3 or 4 feats, not attainable until around level 10, and you might have achieved some balance.

Rav

 

[Ravellion]

Hmmmmm. I noticed some venom in my own last post... let me rephrase.

I think, that if you want to make heavy armour more usuable (and I assuming you've got characters with proficiency in heavy armour in your campaign, who have a dex mod of +2 or lower), use more historic settings fo your characters. Jousts and Footlists at fairs.

Start pitching opponents againt them who not just hit them on a 20, but on an 11. If they can change that to 14, they might take that opportunity.

Bring along an NPC, who doesn't get hit 3 times every round, and after the battle says: "Nay, I require no healing."

If you look at full plate armour, it is the most effective armour for combining dex and Armour value without magic (a total of +9 to AC) It also is mostly effective when flat footed or surprised, while dex isn't.

Why aren't your players using heavy armours? This will just replace Medium armours with heavy armours and light armours with medium armours. Do you really want your rogues running around in Breast Plate?

Just a few more points...

Rav

 

[Crothian]

Ya, there was a little venom in the first message, but the point was made. I've never had a player use any armor other then light. However, we've only had two characters that were not otherwise hindered by armor (for some reason we've only had one cleric and one fighter, everyone else is ofa class that medium or heavey armor is an option because of spellfailure or other class ability). I would like to see some feats that make armor a little more useful. But this one feat is just to good. There is no reason for anyone who uses armor not to take this feat. Thus it is too good. It would be nice to see it brooken down.

 

[Marshall]

Hmmmmm. I noticed some venom in my own last post... let me rephrase.

No problem. I've been known to get a little 'venemous' myself

If you look at full plate armour, it is the most effective armour for combining dex and Armour value without magic (a total of +9 to AC) It also is mostly effective when flat footed or surprised, while dex isn't.

Maybe, but if youre down to speed 60(45 for a Dwarf) at a flat out run youre going to be getting swung at 2-3 times more often than those who can do 60 or 80 with just a double move. Tactical movement is non-existant at armored speeds and Retreat is out of the question. You cant say "Nay, I require no healing." When youre dead or dying because you couldnt get away.

Why aren't your players using heavy armours? This will just replace Medium armours with heavy armours and light armours with medium armours. Do you really want your rogues running around in Breast Plate?

Just a few more points...

Rav

The Fighter/Rogue wont touch it(obvious reasons)
The Dwarven Cleric will do anything to get out of it.
The Paladin(now deceased) turned down +3 Scale, because of the penalties.
A good med armor they'll think about. Heavy? Wont touch the stuff.

How about this:

Armor Expert
You wear your armor like a second skin

Prereq: BAB 4+, proficient with armor type.

Benefit: Choose an armor type(ie Leather, Scale, Full Plate). When wearing this type of armor treat it as one category lighter for purposes of movement(Light armor is still light). Spell failure chances are decreased by 10%.

Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time it applies to a different armor type.

Armored Dexterity
You have grown so accustomed to your armor that it rarely hinders your movements.

Prereq: BAB 6+, DEX 13+, Dodge, Mobility, proficient with armor type
Benefit: Choose an armor type(ie Leather, Scale, Full Plate). When wearing this type of armor treat it as one category lighter for purposes of movement(Light armor is still light). Spell failure chances are decreased by 10%, max dex bonus is increased by 2, and armor check penalties are decreased by 1.

-edit- Changed AD to reflect Nimbleness enhancement

 

[Ravellion]

I think one more item to keep in mind is that Armour is also very cost efficient when comparing it with Bracers of Armour. They also go to +13 (full plate +5), with bracers of armour stopping at.... errrr.. +8 or +9 IIRC?

It think most of the problems you are referring to can be easily solved by a potion of expeditious retreat (though not at 1st caster level), boots of striding and springing or an item that can do expeditious retreat once a day.

Honestly, there are probably reasons why your party doesn't want heavy armour. If my party didn't have a fighter and a cleric, I wanted to keep retreat as a very close option too. If s**t hits the fan, why doesn't the mage teleport the slow guy out, cast haste on him etc.

Of course a heavy armoured dwarf should just die, if he can't win the fight

You could also drop an armou with that MoF quality that gives +1 max dex bonus and -2 armour check penalty... I myself would prefer magic solving this rather than core rules... magic you can take away, feats are there to stay.

Now, to the new feat. A lot better. I would not keep factoring in the Arcane spell failure however. The only precedent is a prestige class, and there is good reason for that. IMO, if someone wants to cast in armour, take the spellsword PrC. For the rest of the first feat, it seems somewhat in the same power level as Run and Dash, though a bit more on the powerful side. I wouldn't let someone take the second one though... as mentioned before, you'll have rogues in full plate. I really don't think that Max Dex bonus should be messed with. It would be 2nd edition all over again.

edit: Heh, I guess what my opinion boils down to is that I think that the only thing you might want to mess regarding to armour with is movement

Rav

 

[Marshall]

I think one more item to keep in mind is that Armour is also very cost efficient when comparing it with Bracers of Armour. They also go to +13 (full plate +5), with bracers of armour stopping at.... errrr.. +8 or +9 IIRC?

Bracers can go as high as your CL allow them to, and dont require any feats to use.

It think most of the problems you are referring to can be easily solved by a potion of expeditious retreat (though not at 1st caster level), boots of striding and springing or an item that can do expeditious retreat once a day.

What if you dont think magic should be the solution to every problem? Doesnt it annoy you that everyone wants Boots of Striding.

Honestly, there are probably reasons why your party doesn't want heavy armour. If my party didn't have a fighter and a cleric, I wanted to keep retreat as a very close option too. If s**t hits the fan, why doesn't the mage teleport the slow guy out, cast haste on him etc.

Yeah, all the heavy speed restrictions Course then youre back to relying on the magic options...

Of course a heavy armoured dwarf should just die, if he can't win the fight

HA!

You could also drop an armou with that MoF quality that gives +1 max dex bonus and -2 armour check penalty... I myself would prefer magic solving this rather than core rules... magic you can take away, feats are there to stay.

Actually you have that backward, its +2 max dex and -1 check penalty. For a +1 enhancement. Hmm...

[qb]Now, to the new feat. A lot better. I would not keep factoring in the Arcane spell failure however. The only precedent is a prestige class, and there is good reason for that. IMO, if someone wants to cast in armour, take the spellsword PrC. For the rest of the first feat, it seems somewhat in the same power level as Run and Dash, though a bit more on the powerful side. I wouldn't let someone take the second one though... as mentioned before, you'll have rogues in full plate. I really don't think that Max Dex bonus should be messed with. It would be 2nd edition all over again.

edit: Heh, I guess what my opinion boils down to is that I think that the only thing you might want to mess regarding to armour with is movement

Rav [/B]

Nah, Rogues wont go for the check penalty and have better things to spend their feats on. The ASF, I honestly dont care about. Just think it wouldn't be a bad thing to have as a feat. So is it your opinion Mithral is overpowered? Thats what these feats are based on.

 

[Ravellion]

Just think it wouldn't be a bad thing to have as a feat. So is it your opinion Mithral is overpowered? Thats what these feats are based on.

Mithral (Yuck! I hate that spelling! It should be Mithril! Is it copyrighted or something?) doesn't stack with anything. It can only be applied to metal armours. It is also somewhat of a sacred cow that it allows heavy armours to be transformed in easy to use protective clothing (almost).

Also, people plan out their feats - I think it is a bad idea because low level P/F&C (paladins / fighters & clerics) will put a 12 in DEX, but higher level ones will put a higher score in DEX, since they can then even more abuse the use of Heavy Armour. (IMC I have a 10 DEX paladin with mithril full plate +2 at level 11...)

It also reduces the problems usually associated with heavy armour. It takes away some of uniqueness of otehr classes (in their mobility). Another problem is that it actually stacks with Mithril plate.

And it just feels wrong somehow

Are you sure about the MoF armour quality? Can someone check?

Rav

 

[Crothian]

Nimbleness: max dex increased by 2, armor check penalty decreased by 1. market price: +1

THis would be about the level I'd place the feat. Having a feat as powerful as mythral is to much. Mythral is very rare and hard to get. As a feat, it would be common. It would also devalue mythral as not many people would be able to take full advantage of all the bonuses.