New FR compared with Dragonlance 5th age

[Graf]

The upcoming changes to the Forgotten Realms setting are similar/dissimilar to the dramatic and successful/unsuccessful changes that Dragonlance under went during the 5th age specifically [insert example or idea here].
Discuss
[sblock=More detail]
Seems like it would be an interesting comparison to make.

I don't know much about the fifth age, but it corresponded with lots of new magic systems, changes to classes, cataclysmic upheaval etc.

Do people think they're similar? Dissimilar? Was 5th age considered successful by Dragonlance aficionados? Did it help the setting reach a wider audience?[/sblock]

 

[Nymrohd]

I think the problem is that Dragonlance had already suffered too many cataclysmic events. FR had the time of troubles, sure, but it was nowhere near as divergent as the events that happened on dragonlance on every edition change. At the same time the FR change also is a time leap, meaning that conitinuity becomes less important.

All in all, I think that the changes in FR seem better handled than those in Dragonlance. It remains to be seen if they actually are though. The setting may well loose its signature feel if it is not handled very well and I get the distinct feel that 4E FR does not get as close a touch by Ed Greenwood as Dragonlance got by Margaret Weis in the 5th age.

I think it is premature to make such a comparison before we have the actual FRCS in our hands.

 

[Cam Banks]

It's a fair enough comparison, but the biggest change for Dragonlance was moving to the cards-based SAGA system, a change from AD&D. The time jump wasn't nearly as broad, but it didn't go over too well with many gamers. To this day, there's a division within Dragonlance fandom over the Fifth Age. Some don't like it, some love it, and some even disagree with the changes made in 3rd edition to bring many of the various elements together. There's a feeling on the part of Fifth Age fans that the War of Souls trilogy and subsequent Age of Mortals campaign setting threw out the things about the Fifth Age that they liked, etc etc.

So, while I don't think 3rd ed to 4th ed is as big a change as AD&D to SAGA, I do agree that there's a very good chance of fanbase division over the new FR.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Cam Banks]

I think the problem is that Dragonlance had already suffered too many cataclysmic events.

Too many? Like, one?

The big Cataclysm that provided the setting with its foundation took place before the original modules came out, and thus didn't occur during the setting's publishing history. The Chaos War, which was the major event of Dragons of Summer Flame, ended with the departure of the gods and set up the Fifth Age.

Compare this with the Time of Troubles between FR 1st and FR 2nd, and the various major world-shaking events that continued to occur in the Realms from 2nd to 3rd and beyond, and I don't think you can really say Dragonlance topped the bill. There's a reason RSE became an acronym in common use by Realms fans.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Sitara]

Dragonlance did have its share of earthshaking eventssadly.

Lets see:

Cataclysm
War of theLance
Return of the deities
Raistlin's ascension/time-travel, flying citadels etc
Summer flame/chaos
Brand new magic system (which sucks btw)
HUGE FREAKING ALIEN/CTHULHU DRAGONS!! WTF??!!?? (sorry but this was a stupid addition to the dragonlance world and where dragonlance really started to unravel. Bigger does not equate better)
War of Souls.

I stopped following after that.

 

[dm4hire]

All changes in Dragonlance have been explained for the most part through cataclysmic events, meaning they changed the entire world, where in FR the changes only changed aspects. This is the first time in FR history where the changes change everything, including the world itself. That's the shake up. Time of Troubles was just a change to how magic worked for the most part, explain it by changing the goddess who controls magic. Major changes to magic, races, classes and every little thing is best described by a major cataclysm.

True the first Cataclysm happened in Dragonlance in story, but so too did the first one for FR, only it happened so far in the past in the history of FR that it has never needed to be mentioned as there was no impact on the characters. In Dragonlance the impact was the return of the gods who had gone silent with the last cataclysm.

[sblock=Examples of cataclysms from Grand History of the Realms]
"-17600 DR
The Sundering: Hundreds of High Mages assemble in the heartland of Faerun at the Gathering Place. Ignoring the lesson learned from the destruction of Tintageer centries earlier [-24500], they cast a spell of elven High Magic designed to create a glorious elf homeland. On the Day of Birthing, the magic reaches its apex as the spell extends both back and forward in the mists of time. Faerun, the one land, is sundered apart by the unbridlged force of the Sundering. AS a result, hundreds of cities are washed away, thousands of elves lie dead, and the face of Toril is changed forever...."

This describes the change

"-339 DR Year of Sundered Webs
- Fall of Netheril: Nearly all of the Netherese enclaves fall to the earth and are destroyed due to disruptions in the Weave brought about by the casting of the spell Karsus' Avatar and the subsequent death of the goddess Mystryl. The body of the momentary god Karsus [-408, -298] falls to earth in the eastern region of the high forest."

This explains the level cap for spells while introducing 12th spells into the game via the Netheril box set put out by TSR at the time. Which this brings up an interesting thought concerning Netheril and the return to epic level magic the game is suppose to see. I wonder if that will mean the Nether Scrolls might be found again?

"-664 DR Year of Turning Tides
- The remaining Nether Scrolls [-1896, 580] are stolen en route to Eileanar"

They are found again in 580 DR but then mentioned again with:

"1344 DR Year of Moonfall
- Mintiper Moonsilver reportedly scatters the three Nether Scrolls [580] from the Hall of Mists to other locations."

I don't believe they are mentioned again after that. So their discovery could herald how FR spellcasters learn to regain control over magic after Mystra's death. If not it might be a good at home twist to the campaign to explain it or at least serve as a good quest item.[/sblock]

 

[Primal]

It's a fair comparison in many ways, because 5th Age involved cataclysmic changes and also included an "edition shift" in the sense that a whole new game system was introduced into the setting. And considering how vastly different 4E is from 3E, you could call it a new game, not just a new edition.

I have always been a DL fan, and yet I really liked 5th Age. I didn't mind so much about Father Chaos and the Dragon Overlords, although I must admit that all those changes made the setting actually harder for me to run. What I loved most were the innovative SAGA rules, because they truly emphasized and encouraged storytelling and we had really good times with them. Sadly, the rules were also a bit "rough" on the edges are easily exploited in certain ways. Yet it should be noted that many concepts first featured in SAGA have now appeared in various Indie RPGs, so I guess that the "legacy" of the SAGA system still lives on. I don't think that 5th Age did too well, commercially, because as we've seen, DL has returned to its "roots" in 3E.

What I've seen of 4E FR so far has been... well, quite uninspiring and lazily thought out. A lot of stuff seems to contradict previously published Realmslore, which is an indication that either the developers didn't come up with any logical reasons for a change or did not do their homework. I mean, 'Dragons of Faerun' introduced the 3E Dragonborn into the Realms, and instead of using the Spellplague to "warp" them, they are just quietly retconned away, just because the developers apparently had *forgotten* about them?!? And instead we get this Tymanther -- the whole kingdom and all -- teleporting into the Realms? And talking of Abeir... it's a nice idea on principle but Bruce Cordell's novel 'Stardeep' and the preview articles contradict the existing lore so badly that it's going to take a *massive* historical retcon to explain that stuff. And then there is the line of thought that most (if not all) "weird" stuff may be explained through the Spellplague, such as how the Planes have been "reshuffled". And yet, all "cool" things (like Netheril and Myth Drannor and the Sword Coast) were completely *protected* from the ravages of the Spellplague, because of ancient Mythals and Mythal-like magics. I mean, a magical force capable of shaking the whole *Cosmology* and tossing *Deities* around couldn't touch High or Epic Magic at all? . Wow, talk about consistency or logic there.

All in all it seems to me that 4E FR tries to combine the "best" parts of Eberron (e.g. 'Spellscars', anyone?) and the 'Points of Light' concept and remaining fiercely loyal to the Core Rules (the number of Deities, for example). This "shoehorning" is a completely new direction in design, because in the past the rules have been implemented and augmented to tailor-fit FR -- not the other way around. In any case, I've always thought that D&D is not the best system for FR, at least if we're talking about Ed Greenwood's vision and also how Ed likes to run his games. Both GURPS or something similar to DL SAGA would work far better consider the "flavour" of the setting.

As I said in the beginning, I think 5th Age DL and 4E FR are a good comparison, but although I was able to enjoy running 5th Age despite the vast changes in the setting, I doubt I'll be able to do the same with FR.

 

[Graf]

So it seems like people think Dragonlance 5th age didn't do very well commercially (though some people liked it). Certainly there is almost nothing about it on Wikipedia (a reasonable barometer for geekly popularity).

I think people also think that the changes to FR are less drastic (except possibly Primal, though my read is more that he feels the FR changes are of lower quality).

Would you say that the Saga system was more gamist, or narritivist?
(I'm assuming narritivist, because of what primal said about "it should be noted that many concepts first featured in SAGA have now appeared in various Indie RPGs". Most Indie's have a narritivist orientation.)

If the answer is narritivist; and the new 4e changes are more gamist then that would be a key difference, I think.

 

[Voss]

It seems a fair comparison, since both settings started with an idea, got the juices sucked out by committees and then were hit by increasingly incoherent and bizarre rules changes that alter fluff for no apparent reason.

But then, both Dark Sun and Planescape had their endings in 'What the hell, why would you do this?' moments too.

I suspect that the model is going to be largely like this- the 'classic' (used loosely) setting gets a primer, then the 'newer' setting and ultimately the classic will break under the weight of the bizarre changes, and a Brand New Shiny Setting will be incorporated shortly before the next edition. Bob and the caricature will keep the realms afloat for a little longer, but when he stops, so will the realms.

 

[Dormain1]

The change from 2nd ed to 5th Age would be like changing from 3.5 to Magic the gathering, the difference was all in the rules the fluff was still dragonlance but the game was no longer DnD

In every edition change there has to be some re-shuffeling of the deck, just so things make sense with the new edition otherwise things go the way of spelljammer or DarkSun both good settings but just too much work to retcon

Dragonlance did have its share of earthshaking eventssadly.

Lets see:

Cataclysm
War of theLance
Return of the deities
Raistlin's ascension/time-travel, flying citadels etc
Summer flame/chaos
Brand new magic system (which sucks btw)
HUGE FREAKING ALIEN/CTHULHU DRAGONS!! WTF??!!?? (sorry but this was a stupid addition to the dragonlance world and where dragonlance really started to unravel. Bigger does not equate better)
War of Souls.

I stopped following after that.

and Sitara I feel sorry for you, i do agree DL has had its fair share of earth shattering events but no more than any other setting, and the whole cthulhu dragons sux'd pretty bad but the writers were trying to leap from 5th Age back to DnD

I have to say that i love the new Age of Mortals Campaign co-written by Cam, it really has recaptured the old Dragonlance feel, and there are so many easter eggs that every other week our group are saying things like, "Cam, bull he wouldn't have made that certain wizard into a tree.... that's just wrong "

Back to the original Q, The current changes feel like changing from 2nd ed to third ed, eg no more thaco (yeah), no more spheres for clerics, saving throws changed from four to three

hope this helped