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New GSL Announcement

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JohnRTroy

Adventurer
BryonD said:
I agree with you there. If WotC gave me free use of their stuff and I was allowed to use it without any similar reverse expectation on myself, I'd call that a really cool deal. I'd also like some free books while we are doing one-sided deals.

One-sided contracts are called End User License Agreements ;)

And like I said up-thread, all Wizards would have to do to prevent it from being one-sided is say that WoTC and WoTC alone gets the right to use it, and no one else, which they may do if it's not viral. WoTC doesn't usually use other people's content anyway, based on the track record.

My personal ideal is that it will be viral by choice of the individual company. I'd also be happy if they did make it the same viral conditions as the last time.

However, the cynic tells me it will be closed by default. :-/
 
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Sora Justice

First Post
BryonD said:
It is religious to see Open Gaming as a bigger picture than the most recent edition of a single game?????

Absolutely. The only thing Open Gaming has to its credit is that it was used by Dungeons and Dragons. If Dungeons and Dragons had not used it, it would never have meant anything, and now that Dungeons and Dragons does not use it, it does not mean anything.

(Yes, I'm sure you'll want to inform me that a few other insignificant games have, for whatever reason, fallen under the Open Gaming banner. I don't care, and neither should you, about those other games. By the admission of the second-largest company in the industry - the only other company in the industry that has market share worth talking about - D&D is fantasy roleplaying.)
 

Urizen

First Post
Sora Justice said:
Absolutely. The only thing Open Gaming has to its credit is that it was used by Dungeons and Dragons. If Dungeons and Dragons had not used it, it would never have meant anything, and now that Dungeons and Dragons does not use it, it does not mean anything.

(Yes, I'm sure you'll want to inform me that a few other insignificant games have, for whatever reason, fallen under the Open Gaming banner. I don't care, and neither should you, about those other games. By the admission of the second-largest company in the industry - the only other company in the industry that has market share worth talking about - D&D is fantasy roleplaying.)

In your opinion.

I'm sure alot of people would disagree with you.

Posting incendiary comments like this doesn't do anything for the debate, btw. You just breed resentment.
 

Vascant

Wanderer of the Underdark
Sora Justice said:
Absolutely. The only thing Open Gaming has to its credit is that it was used by Dungeons and Dragons. If Dungeons and Dragons had not used it, it would never have meant anything, and now that Dungeons and Dragons does not use it, it does not mean anything.

Maybe not to you...

This is my biggest problem right now with how all this is being forced down, for a great many years Dungeons and Dragons was a game played by friends at a table. Now I am finding many people are attempting to tell others what the game is or isn't? There is a pretty big difference between 4e and 3.5e and just because 4e may not be someone's style of gaming does not mean they suddenly are not playing Dungeons and Dragons. Anyone who thinks this way is pretty confused about this game.
 

The Sigil

Mr. 3000 (Words per post)
Did the OGL benefit by having the D&D ruleset published under its name? Absolutely.

Is the OGL perfect? No. Heavens, no. Almost from the beginning, the "Attribution" portion of its viral nature has been a beast (with ever-expanding Section 15's) and I for one am *still* appalled at the general laxity with which the "You Must Clearly Identify What is Open Game Content" is treated (since for a great many publishers, I could say their designations makes it obvious that their understanding of "Clearly" is some new definition of the word with which I am not familiar).

Apart from the fact that I do not like the kludgy Section 15's (how I would have solved it: If you take material from a source, you need only attribute that source, not reproduce its section 15 in its entirety - while this takes away credit "downstream" I think it's preferable to the alternative) and preferred a clearer stance on PI/OGC especially with regard to clarity (not quite sure off the top of my head how I would have solved that one; limiting PI designations to, say, registered trademarks only would solve the problem but is probably too harsh).

So there... there are the flaws I see in the Open Gaming License... that in one case it is too tight and inflexible (section 15) and in one case it is too loose (clear designation).

That it is viral I do *not* see as a flaw. In fact, I see that as its primary FEATURE, not as a bug. From the perspective of WotC, the OGL was there to allow support for - and thus increasing feedback into - D&D, via the "Skaff Effect." While the OGL has had the side effects of allowing entirely new products to be birthed (e.g., the True20 system) that do not directly feed D&D, I think that, by and large, support for D&D was in fact the largest thing it accomplished, and the Skaff Effect probably kicked in well.

With my "gamer" hat on, I am glad that the 3E/OGL mix forever put D&D - or at least one incarnation thereof - beyond the reach of corporate control and vindictiveness on the scale Lorraine Williams(?) attempted. D&D is now free to die of "natural causes" - not enough GAMERS supporting it - rather than of "unnatural ones" (its owner ceasing support/going out of business, etc.)

Now I hear that the GSL may contain clauses to try to force people to abandon the OGL. I happen to believe strongly in Open Source ideology, so I'll say I'm not thrilled that this is even on the table. In my mind, the proper thing to do would have been to go back and "fix" the problems with the Open Game License, then extend a new license, akin to the d20 license, but for 4E, to go along with it and release the 4E SRD-equivalent under the new-and-improved OGL. From a practical, business standpoint, I understand why this is on the table at WotC... but it doesn't make the idealist in me take it the news any better.

ALL THAT SAID, I am reserving final judgment on the GSL until I actually get a final copy in my hot little hands. Until that happens, the hue and cry and handwringing is at best premature and at worst unnecessary. I like to worry about what IS the situation, not what MIGHT BE the situation. Since there are far mor "MIGHT BE'S" than "IS's" it cuts my worry down a lot. ;)
 
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Oldtimer

Great Old One
Publisher
JohnRTroy said:
I'm kind of saying let it be "opt out" instead of "opt in" by default.
You do realize, John, that it is "opt in" by default. You are required to formulate an OGC declaration which describes what is Open Gaming Content in your work. If you don't include any of your own original work in that declaration, you haven't "opted in". PI was added as a convenience to white out single words or phrases you wanted to keep for yourself.
 

Orcus

First Post
Flynn said:
Ummm, Orcus, could it be, based on the second paragraph of his post, that perhaps Wulf was being sarcastic? Sometimes tone doesn't carry via email and forum post. The statement didn't jive with Wulf's previous comments, IMO, of course, so that's how I took it.

Just Trying To Help,
Flynn

It could be, and frankly I was surprised that Wulf was saying that based on prior comments.

Thanks for helping. I need it. This whole thing is driving me crazy :)

Clark
 

Orcus

First Post
jmucchiello said:
My point was that if WotC is not harmed by the viral nature of the OGL, why would they bother changing that aspect of the new license? What incentive do that have to make the GSL non-viral other than JohnRTroy (et. al.) doesn't like it? How does making it non-viral benefit WotC?

Why? Because a lot of people in corporate culture JUST DONT GET IT. Its that simple. They are scared of open content. They dont understand it. It bothers them on some internal level. They are managers who answer to larger overlords and fear being the person who is blamed for "giving it away." That is why.
 

Orcus

First Post
Wulf Ratbane said:
Presumably all the publishers that John knows that don't like the viral nature will finally feel comfortable enough to start publishing.

It should be a very exciting time for the hobby, since these are all new publishers that nobody has heard from before.

OK, yeah, now I'm getting the sarcasm :)
 


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