New GSL Announcement

[JohnRTroy]

By "mutual exclusivity" I mean, different versions of the same product cannot occur at the same time.

So, basically, is this statement correct?

If you have a current 3e product released with the old license, and you wish to upgrade it to 4e, you can no longer sell the 3e version of the product, correct?

 

[lurkinglidda]

So in other words, if I print "The Book of New Rules" under the OGL, I can't also print "The Book of New Rules" under the GSL, correct?

Correct. One or the Other.

<snip> I think it would have been easier - and more publisher-friendly - to just keep it to not having the GSL and OGL both be present at the same time in the same book.

I think it's pretty publisher-friendly that we have a GSL period!

Will there be some sort of clause to allow publishers to print 4E versions of existing 3.5 books before the GSL is released?

No one can print 4E books before the GSL is released.

 

[Alzrius]

No one can print 4E books before the GSL is released.

I phrased that badly (and went back and edited it for that reason just as you responded. D'oh!).

I mean, if an OGL book is/was released before the GSL finally does come out, will it still be held to the same rule of not being allowed to have a GSL version?

 

[lurkinglidda]

So, basically, is this statement correct?

If you have a current 3e product released with the old license, and you wish to upgrade it to 4e, you can no longer sell the 3e version of the product, correct?

In my best impression of Phil Hartman doing an impression of Ed McMahon:

You, sir, are correct.

 

[Bacris]

You, sir, are correct.

Interesting...

But props for the Phil Hartman reference.

Good times, good times.

 

[DaveMage]

In my best impression of Phil Hartman doing an impression of Ed McMahon:

You, sir, are correct.

Does this apply to .pdfs?

In other words, if Green Ronin were to do a print product called "Death in Freeport" for 4E, could they no longer sell the 3.0 version in .pdf?

 

[Lizard]

In my best impression of Phil Hartman doing an impression of Ed McMahon:

You, sir, are correct.

Since the OGL and the GSL are separate, how does that work?

Is there language in the GSL which says, "If you create a new product based on an older work released under the OGL, you may no longer sell the older product as a condition of accepting the GSL"?

That's pretty...far reaching.

It's aking to a EULA which reads "If you use Microsoft Word 2007 to edit a document written in Open Office 2.0, you may no longer edit that document with Open Office."

It might be legal -- I believe you have the right to offer someone any terms you want, and they can accept or reject them as they see fit -- but it's a bit extreme.

How does that work with products never released in older versions? Let's say I have a world I'd like to adapt for both Pathfinder and 4e. Are you saying, basically, "Pick one -- if you release a 3x product, you CANNOT release (as a seperate product) a 4e version"? Or am I minsunderstanding you.

 

[JohnRTroy]

I honest think it applies to PDFs, why wouldn't it?! Both are products for sale. I even suspect it will apply to freebies.

In other words, no dual-stat systems--either commit to 4e or stick with 3e, no "on the fence". Say for instance if Monte Cook wanted to go to 4e, all 3e stuff he converts must be taken off the market.

 

[Lizard]

I honest think it applies to PDFs, why wouldn't it?! Both are products for sale. I even suspect it will apply to freebies.

In other words, no dual-stat systems--either commit to 4e or stick with 3e, no "on the fence". Say for instance if Monte Cook wanted to go to 4e, all 3e stuff he converts must be taken off the market.

Define "Converts".

"Arcana Even More Evolved"
"Ptolus: The Next Generation"

What is a "conversion" and what is a "setting update" or "new book"?

Lidda says they've found all the edge cases. I guess we'll know when we see the license text. I know the public debate on comment on the original OGL/STL helped make them a lot stronger and more comprehensive. I have a bad feeling the way the GSL will handle edge cases is "If, in the sole discretion of WOTC, a product is in violation, it is."

 

[Alzrius]

Say for instance if Monte Cook wanted to go to 4e, all 3e stuff he converts must be taken off the market.

Bear in mind that, from what Linae has said so far, this is only true for direct conversions of books. Monte could write a product called The Book of Expanded Might and have it contain large sections of 3.5 material converted to 4E. It just can't be any of his previous books with only a mechanical update.

At least, that's how it seems from the statements we've had thus far.

Lidda says they've found all the edge cases. I guess we'll know when we see the license text. I know the public debate on comment on the original OGL/STL helped make them a lot stronger and more comprehensive. I have a bad feeling the way the GSL will handle edge cases is "If, in the sole discretion of WOTC, a product is in violation, it is."

Now that's a scary thought!

At least that would only apply to GSL products, leaving the OGL a safe harbor. But yeah, if WotC has sole discretionary powers over what does and does not count as an "updated product" (or similar language) then things could get very ugly.

 

[Orcus]

I believe, in fact, that it is even a bit more restrictive than people are seeing. It is not just that you cant mix the two licenses in one product. It is that if you use the GSL you cannot also use the OGL for 3E products.

In other words, publishers have to decide if they want to stay 3E or if they want to come along for the 4E ride.

It is not a product by product choice. It is a business by business choice. It is not "well, this product will be 4E using the GSL but the next one will be for 3E under the OGL."

In other words, Necro cant do 3 books for 4E then decide to go back and do a 3E book.

Or, along the same lines, if Paizo wants to do Pathfinder 3E, it cant do 4E products. If it does, it can no longer do 3E ones.

I have, however, specifically clarified that Necro can do 4E and Paizo can keep doing 3E Pathfinder stuff and that is just fine.

Once you are in for 4E, you are in, and cant go back (well, you could but you would presumably lose the right to use the GSL from that point forward).

I have to clarify if I will be able to do 3E stats as seperate downloads for 4E books. My guess is that I will not be allowed to do that under the GSL. But I havent asked that direct question.

By the way, this info was from Wizards. Unless I am misunderstanding what they told me or they didnt understand my question, this is how it will be.

Clark

 

[Orcus]

You cannot create both OGL/3E products and GSL/4E products, even if they are seperate products. You have to choose what you are supporting--3E or 4E.

Paizo, for example, cannot create both 3E and 4E products, even if they are seperate products. Its one or the other. And that goes for every publisher. It appears you can go 3E as long as you want. The OGL and the SRD are not revocable. But once you go 4E, you cant go back and still do 4E products.

And I shouldnt just single out Paizo. I do because I work with them. But lets say Monte wanted to do a 4E update of a book of his and uses the GSL. Once he does that, no more OGL and no more 3E for him (unless he wants to forsake any more use of the GSL, as it was explained to me; now maybe I misunderstood or they change their stance between today and the final version but I think the chances of that are slim).

This should be interesting...

 

[Lizard]

I believe, in fact, that it is even a bit more restrictive than people are seeing. It is not just that you cant mix the two licenses in one product. It is that if you use the GSL you cannot also use the OGL for 3E products.

Is this by company or by person?

Lizard Enterprises publishes a 3x book under the OGL.

Lizard Publishing publishes the same IP under 4e rules using the GSL.

Separate entities, seperate bookkeeping, etc, just both owned and staffed by the same person.

Legal or not?

 

[Orcus]

Is this by company or by person?

Lizard Enterprises publishes a 3x book under the OGL.

Lizard Publishing publishes the same IP under 4e rules using the GSL.

Separate entities, seperate bookkeeping, etc, just both owned and staffed by the same person.

Legal or not?

That's a good question. I dont know the answer.

 

[DaveMage]

You cannot create both OGL/3E products and GSL/4E products, even if they are seperate products. You have to choose what you are supporting--3E or 4E.

Indeed.

Then to go 4E, you would indeed need to remove all 3.x pdf products from availablilty, correct?

Or is it that once you start using the 4E license, you would no longer be able to make new 3E products, but the ones already in existance could stay?

 

[Alzrius]

Wow...

I really don't know how to respond to that. That's more restrictive than I'd ever imagined the GSL would be. I'm amazed that's even legal, to put in a clause that your business must forsake the OGL entirely to use the GSL at all.

Remember that animosity towards WotC that people were saying they felt before? I wonder if they're feeling anything right now.

I have to clarify if I will be able to do 3E stats as seperate downloads for 4E books. My guess is that I will not be allowed to do that under the GSL. But I havent asked that direct question.

Clark, this is the first I've heard that you'd be interested in doing any sort of 3E stats for your 4E materials. It's a pleasant surprise, though it doesn't seem likely to happen now. Would it make a difference if they were free downloads, rather than pay-for-downloads? Likewise, would it be legal if Paizo released those materials, even if they were written by you?

Either way, I'm happy to hear that you've at least got new 3E stuff on your mind.

 

[Orcus]

Indeed.

Then to go 4E, you would indeed need to remove all 3.x pdf products from availablilty, correct?

Or is it that once you start using the 4E license, you would no longer be able to make new 3E products, but the ones already in existance could stay?

I dont know what the restriction is. One would imagine you get a reasonable sell off period.

 

[Orcus]

Wow...

I really don't know how to respond to that. That's more restrictive than I'd ever imagined the GSL would be. I'm amazed that's even legal, to put in a clause that your business must forsake the OGL entirely to use the GSL at all.

Remember that animosity towards WotC that people were saying they felt before before? I wonder if they feel anything right now.

Clark, this is the first I've heard that you'd be interested in doing any sort of 3E stats for your 4E materials. It's a pleasant surprise, though it doesn't seem likely to happen now. Would it make a difference if they were free downloads, rather than pay-for-downloads? Likewise, would it be legal if Paizo released those materials, even if they were written by you?

Either way, I'm happy to hear that you've at least got new 3E stuff on your mind.

I'll admit, I didnt see this one coming. I figured no OGL and GSL content in the same product. That was kind of a no brainer.

I have no resentment. I was planning on going 4E so it doesnt make any difference to me. And I can always go back to 3E if I want. They cant ever close that.

As for 3E stats for 4E books, when books got pushed back and they turned into 4E books I told the fans that we would also release a pdf for free of the conversion stats so they could use the 4E books, to the extent possible. They were written as 3E books, so it would have been simple to do. I'm not sure where it leaves that plan. Maybe the solution for me is that Necro doesnt publish those 3E stats, I just let the authors post it as fan material or something. I'm going to do my best to live up to my promise. But if I cant, I cant.

I dont think anyone should be that mad about this. It is an unforseen restriction. But we were dealing with the strong possibility that 4E wouldnt be open at all. So I see it as acceptable.

 

[Orcus]

Either way, I'm happy to hear that you've at least got new 3E stuff on your mind.

I dont have new 3E stuff on my mind at all. I am firmly 4E. I was just going to provide that as an accomodation to fans. Thats all.

 

[DaveMage]

As for 3E stats for 4E books, when books got pushed back and they turned into 4E books I told the fans that we would also release a pdf for free of the conversion stats so they could use the 4E books, to the extent possible. They were written as 3E books, so it would have been simple to do. I'm not sure where it leaves that plan. Maybe the solution for me is that Necro doesnt publish those 3E stats, I just let the authors post it as fan material or something. I'm going to do my best to live up to my promise. But if I cant, I cant.

I dont think anyone should be that mad about this. It is an unforseen restriction. But we were dealing with the strong possibility that 4E wouldnt be open at all. So I see it as acceptable.

For what it's worth, I don't think anyone will be mad at you...