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New GSL Announcement

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kunadam

Explorer
Cergorach said:
WotC eliminated much of the competition in the last decade or at least tied the competition to the D&D system. After that decade most of the surviving publishers that are tied to D&D are so dependant

What game were the competitors of WotC? I cannot name any.
Please note that an alternate PHB or even an a completly new systems is not necessary a competitor of WotC. Most people, who bought Connan, Iron Heroes, Aracan Evolved, True20 probably have the 3rd edition PHB (3.5 too). They are D&D players, who wanted a different flavour or just tried out a bit different system.

WoD from White Wolf? (not to mention WoD d20) It is a different genere. You either were a D&D player who happened to want something else for a change, or you never were into fantasy RPG and preferred modern horror. In non of the cases are there any competition for WotC.

This is what Monte Cook wanted to show to us, this is what probably many people at WotC do not understand any more.

There is no such thing as competition to D&D!​
 

kalanijasmine

First Post
kunadam said:
What game were the competitors of WotC? I cannot name any.
There is no such thing as competition to D&D!​
Palladium Fantasy, GURPS, MERP/Rollmaster, Warhammer Fantasy, Legend of the 5 Rings....

These are all very different systems which competed with D&D directly for the fantasy RP market and have been very successful doing so. Nor are they the only games to have done so, but are simply the ones I can think of off the top of my head.
  • GURPS and MERP faded into the background during the 90s, with GURPs still having some success, and MERP being replaced by the new LOTR RPG.
  • Legend of the Five Rings was picked up by WoTC as their 3.0 Oriental Adventures Setting.
  • Palladium Fantasy (and the rest of the Palladium System) and Warhammer Fantasy continue to do very well to this day, although their market-share has been eclipsed by D&D thanks to the success of the 3.X engine, or more accurately, the d20 OGL.

You have been corrected.
 
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see

Explorer
kunadam said:
What game were the competitors of WotC? I cannot name any.

That's so sad. You see, you seem to have that odd form of illiteracy, so prevalent on the Internet, that leaves you capable of writing but not of reading.

You see, a bunch of D&D's competitors were named just a handful of posts earlier in the thread, and if you were literate, you could have read their names. As it is, since you can't read, it isn't even possible for me to tell you that they were mentioned just above.

I really hope someone comes up with a cure for your affliction, I really do.
 

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
see said:
That's so sad. You see, you seem to have that odd form of illiteracy, so prevalent on the Internet, that leaves you capable of writing but not of reading.

You see, a bunch of D&D's competitors were named just a handful of posts earlier in the thread, and if you were literate, you could have read their names. As it is, since you can't read, it isn't even possible for me to tell you that they were mentioned just above.

I really hope someone comes up with a cure for your affliction, I really do.

Now I don't know whether you meant this as humour or not, but you've been around long enough to know that being rude to other people here isn't allowed.

This thread is sensitive enough without adding in personal attacks, so don't post in this thread again.
 

Tao

First Post
kalanijasmine said:
with GURPs still having some success
Wait... you actually know someone who plays GURPS? Cause I heard there's only one active GURPS gaming group in the whole world and that they meet under the streets of Paris to play, but only on full moons.

Sorry... had to do it.
 

Lord Mhoram

Adventurer
Tao said:
Wait... you actually know someone who plays GURPS? Cause I heard there's only one active GURPS gaming group in the whole world and that they meet under the streets of Paris to play, but only on full moons.

Sorry... had to do it.


Given the mood - wouldn't that be Vampire or Werewolf (under the streets and under a full moon?) :)


Yeah, D&D is the industry leader, but that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of other stuff out there - I've been playing HERO for nearly 20 years... and I primarily GM Fantasy Hero. :)

I still play the odd occasional D&D game still though.
 

jmucchiello

Adventurer
kalanijasmine said:
Palladium Fantasy (and the rest of the Palladium System) and Warhammer Fantasy continue to do very well to this day, although their market-share has been eclipsed by D&D thanks to the success of the 3.X engine, or more accurately, the d20 OGL.
Um, the market share of all the systems you names, all the ones you forgot and all the systems in other genres do not add up the market share of D&D several times over. WotC calls a book selling 30k units disappointing. WoD books might sell that well and when they do, I doubt White Wolf is disappointed. This had nothing to do with the OGL, TSR's sales were also far better than any competitor's sales since the first D&D box release.
You have been corrected.
In the sense that you named competitors to D&D, yes. In the sense that WotC must care one iota what those competitors do in order to stay relevant, no. WotC, D&D specifically, is the 800 pound gorilla in the RPG market.
 

Pale

First Post
I thought that White Wolf had a larger share of the market towards the end of the Second Edition days.
 

Pale

First Post
jmucchiello said:
In the sense that WotC must care one iota what those competitors do in order to stay relevant, no. WotC, D&D specifically, is the 800 pound gorilla in the RPG market.

So why do they seem to care what third-party publishers do with 3.5 OGL material? If there position is as secure as you make it out to be, why bother with the so-called "poison pill" clause at all?
 

jmucchiello

Adventurer
Pale said:
So why do they seem to care what third-party publishers do with 3.5 OGL material? If there position is as secure as you make it out to be, why bother with the so-called "poison pill" clause at all?
I have NO idea. It makes no sense at all. Except, perhaps their view of RPGs is bigger than my view (which only includes table top gaming).
 

Vigilance

Explorer
Pale said:
So why do they seem to care what third-party publishers do with 3.5 OGL material? If there position is as secure as you make it out to be, why bother with the so-called "poison pill" clause at all?

I don't think they specifically care about 3.5 or feel threatened by it.

I think the attempt to break from the OGL and move to a new license is designed to allow Wizards to alter the terms over time, and encourage upgrading along with them, by fans and publishers, asw they release new versions of the game.
 

Dragon Snack

First Post
Pale said:
I thought that White Wolf had a larger share of the market towards the end of the Second Edition days.
According to the WotC survey from 1999/2000, 66% played D&D monthly. 25% played Vampire and 15% played Werewolf, so even if there was no crossover that only gives White Wolf 40% of monthly gamers.

That's just what games they were playing though, not what they were buying...
 

madelf

First Post
jmucchiello said:
I have NO idea. It makes no sense at all. Except, perhaps their view of RPGs is bigger than my view (which only includes table top gaming).
Or it might be that even though those sales don't remotely rival the sales of D&D, they'd still like to get those sales to go with the ones they have. Every sale is profit. The more sales they make, the greater the profit. The fewer competitors they have, no matter how small those competitors may be, the greater the profit. The numbers don't need to be huge to add up.

Every person who sticks to 3.5 instead of moving up to 4th edition is a lost sale for WotC. Just like every person who buys some other competing game instead of D&D is a lost sale for WotC. Every single one cuts that tiny little bit deeper into their potential profit. So all those games combined, are definitely competition to WotC, even if WotC does overshadow them all.

Beyond maintaining their dominance, there's not much WotC can do about that. But the thing with the "poison pill" is, WotC might think maybe they can do something to at least minimize the sales they're potentially losing to 3.5 by using the terms of the GSL to reduce the overall number of their competitors (and the significance of the remainder), by locking the major players into being D&D support instead of direct competition.
 

BSF

Explorer
madelf said:
Or it might be that even though those sales don't remotely rival the sales of D&D, they'd still like to get those sales to go with the ones they have. Every sale is profit. The more sales they make, the greater the profit. The fewer competitors they have, no matter how small those competitors may be, the greater the profit. The numbers don't need to be huge to add up.

Every person who sticks to 3.5 instead of moving up to 4th edition is a lost sale for WotC. Just like every person who buys some other competing game instead of D&D is a lost sale for WotC. Every single one cuts that tiny little bit deeper into their potential profit. So all those games combined, are definitely competition to WotC, even if WotC does overshadow them all.

Beyond maintaining their dominance, there's not much WotC can do about that. But the thing with the "poison pill" is, WotC might think maybe they can do something to at least minimize the sales they're potentially losing to 3.5 by using the terms of the GSL to reduce the overall number of their competitors (and the significance of the remainder), by locking the major players into being D&D support instead of direct competition.

While this is certainly one strategy, and I wouldn't fault the business perspective that would dictate that WotC adopt this strategy, there is potential fallout from it. A true poison pill provision can increase the number of customers that choose not to buy the new edition based on principle. I've gone into more detail in other threads, so I won't delve deeply into my reasons here.

The short of it is that WotC can choose to leverage market position to do what they wish. Whether it is presented as pushing competing products out of the marketplace, or even discouraging support for products that are built upon an inferior foundation, you run the risk of alienating some of your existing customer base. These are luxury products, after all. WotC needs to determine if the risk of this alienation will be counterbalanced by the influx of new market share.

If they are weighing the impact of lost sales opportunities for people that don't adopt the new edition because support for the old edition still exists, how many sales might they lose when picky fans don't adopt the new edition because WotC used market leverage to drive that support away?

I'm not even sure WotC intended to have the proposed exclusivity provisions stamp out competing products. I think they have more intent to keep mixed OGL/GSL products from infringing upon the intellectual property they are looking to open up.

In that context, I can accept that a product released under both licenses would be a bad thing. However, I will be very unhappy if the exclusivity provisions dictate that a given company cannot support differing OGL and GSL products.

Yet, in many other ways, I am excited by the prospects of the GSL. I can see a lot of very interesting and exciting ways that WotC can provide more opportunities to provide a rich support channel for the game and any given setting through the third party publishers and the GSL.

I hope they have found a way to remove the poison pill aspects while still protecting the access that the GSL provides. As a customer, I see no problems with having support for all of my favorite games from excellent publishers. Even if some of the support products are for GSL based games while other support products are for OGL based games.
 

Piratecat

Writing Fantasy Gumshoe!
I'm closing this due to length, especially because WotC has answered the OGL questions! Time for someone to start a new thread.
 

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