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D&D General New Interview with Rob Heinsoo About 4E

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Oofta

Legend
For me, this is another way that 4e achieved what it set out to do, which was to create a TTRPG experience somewhat similar to an MMORPG experience. In an MMORPG the monster encounters are the whole point of the game. Everything that you do is about improving your character's ability to succeed in the big boss fight. More specifically, the raid encounter. And those fights have various stages, so you have to plan your cooldowns (on use powers, in 4e terms) accordingly, and so on.

I think that 4e was broadly successful in creating a game that captured some of that feeling. But that's not D&D is, for me. For me, D&D is a much more story-driven game. In our last three sessions at school, there has been exactly ONE combat encounter - there was potential for others, but the players found interesting solutions. And they have been having a great time.

You could do that in 4e, but it felt like the point of the game was to prepare for set piece battles. Very much like an MMORPG. But I was already playing World of Warcraft. I wasn't looking for experience at my TTRPG.

I'm sure the setting changes were a big problem for some folks. They were not even a consideration for me.

One of the reasons I burned out on 4E was because it felt like the structure of the game and combat just kind of sucked all the oxygen out of the room for anything non-combat or for creative off-label solutions. I'm honestly not 100% sure why it felt that way for me. There were a few factors, of course. One was the skill challenge structure being presented, or at least interpreted by many DMs, as something that should pretty much always be used to resolve stuff outside of combat.

But a big part of it was the narrow focus but ever-increasing multitude of powers. You couldn't swing from a chandelier (unless it was part of a skill challenge of course) because someone out there might have a chandelier swinging power*. In addition the powers were so detailed in what they could do that there wasn't much wiggle room for creativity or using it for something different than exactly what the text said.

That, and at higher levels combat took hours. Heck, we timed it once and in an epic level game a single round took a little over an hour.

*Obviously silly example is obviously silly. But I was told more than once that I couldn't do X because it was something that others could do because of a power. After I was told that a couple of times, I stopped asking.
 

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mamba

Legend
Ah, yes, because good rules can overcome a generation-defining recession and a team murder-suicide. I'd love to see how that works.
neither of these are the reasons why 4e failed, they did not help, sure, but 4e failed because of the 4e rules and how they were written. It was not a good game that failed due to circumstances outside of its control, it primarily failed because it did not deliver what people wanted from D&D.
 

MwaO

Adventurer
I definitely get what you're saying here. In the 4e MM, to use an example, the efreet has a variety of combat abilities - but pretty much nothing else. The flavor text says that efreet hate servitude but are often called upon by mortals to do favors. OK, great. That's similar to other editions. But they're called on by mortals to do... what? Given how they're statted up, apparently beat people up?
Contrast with AD&D, 3e, and even 5e where the efreet have other things they can do that aren't focused on combat. And the efreet isn't the only critter affected this way.

And I found the same with much of the adventuring rules that are out there compared to AD&D, 3e, and 5e. The 4e ones always seem more fixated on encounter-level involvement than other editions. But that's 4e's particular myopia - it's THE edition focused most tightly on providing a particular combat encounter experience.

And, ultimately, another reason Rob Heinsoo's analysis about the disapproval aimed at 4e falls short.
There are two different things that monsters/enemies/etc...are expected to do:
Fulfill a combat role
Do things in non-combat that are interesting and make sense.

A simple example of this is the enemy wizard. Is an enemy wizard going to last 20 rounds? No. So don't give the Wizard 20 possible spells to cast, give the Wizard say 5 spells. This allows you to fit a Wizard onto a single page of text with everything they can do in combat listed out. This doesn't actually mean that Wizard only has those 5 spells available to them. Those are just the spells that they will cast in a combat with the PCs. And those can be interesting and unique spells that do all kinds of cool things, but importantly, it is easy to DM and create — you can even whip up a 6th or 7th spell if the Wizard lasts that long and it takes seconds to get it right once you're used to the math.

Now, that Wizard is out of combat? Hey, make up what you think is appropriate for that Wizard to do and have them do that.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I know. You've mentioned it before. And I have no answer as to why you can't anyone to play 4E with you.

I don't remember if you've mentioned it specifically in the past, but have you been offering to DM, or just been looking to play? My gut would tell me that offering to DM would be more likely to generate player interest so that you could actually get a 4E game onto the table (or online)... but maybe that hasn't worked out for you either? I take it on faith you've done all you can to generate something in the 4E sphere, but unfortunately the circles you've been looking in have come up empty and I have no explanation why that could be.
I have not tried to DM, no, mostly because I know where that leads. Permanent DM status. I'm not really keen on that. And doing DMing when my heart isn't in it would be at best a disservice to the poor players subjected to the result.
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
I have not tried to DM, no, mostly because I know where that leads. Permanent DM status. I'm not really keen on that. And doing DMing when my heart isn't in it would be at best a disservice to the poor players subjected to the result.
Wait - you haven't DMed at all because you're afraid that it will mean that you will have to DM forever if you do?

Huh. That's... unfortunate.

How do you play now? I assume that would mean that you have a DM. Would that DM happily give up DMing forever the second you offer to do it?

I feel very lucky that my group has 3 people that are happy to DM. I do it 70% of the time because I like to DM. But I can sit back and play whenever I finish a story arc.
 

One of the reasons I burned out on 4E was because it felt like the structure of the game and combat just kind of sucked all the oxygen out of the room for anything non-combat or for creative off-label solutions. I'm honestly not 100% sure why it felt that way for me. There were a few factors, of course. One was the skill challenge structure being presented, or at least interpreted by many DMs, as something that should pretty much always be used to resolve stuff outside of combat.

But a big part of it was the narrow focus but ever-increasing multitude of powers. You couldn't swing from a chandelier (unless it was part of a skill challenge of course) because someone out there might have a chandelier swinging power*. In addition the powers were so detailed in what they could do that there wasn't much wiggle room for creativity or using it for something different than exactly what the text said.

That, and at higher levels combat took hours. Heck, we timed it once and in an epic level game a single round took a little over an hour.

*Obviously silly example is obviously silly. But I was told more than once that I couldn't do X because it was something that others could do because of a power. After I was told that a couple of times, I stopped asking.
Funny, I thought people didn't want rules in their role playing. Just give people a good combat engine and let the players free form improv the rest???
 

MwaO

Adventurer
Wait - you haven't DMed at all because you're afraid that it will mean that you will have to DM forever if you do?

Huh. That's... unfortunate.

How do you play now? I assume that would mean that you have a DM. Would that DM happily give up DMing forever the second you offer to do it?

I feel very lucky that my group has 3 people that are happy to DM. I do it 70% of the time because I like to DM. But I can sit back and play whenever I finish a story arc.
Yeah that's my group too. I DM'd 4e a lot when it was in person, but feel distinctly uncomfortable doing it online for reasons. But we have 3 DMs in our group and they switch off.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
So I think 4E is a fine game. It's fairly well balanced. The rules are sensible and logical.
That's some of the game's main strengths. Balance and (mostly) well-written rules.
To me, the biggest difference is the design focus. Whereas the first few editions of D&D were focused on dungeon exploration, second edition was focused on campaign design, and third edition was focused on character design - 4E had a narrow focus on encounter design. You're going to go through a string of thematic battles. In the modules, they would have a two-page spread showing a battlemap made from crude tiles (sold separately) - with the overall dungeon maps being a simple flowchart from battle to battle.
Exactly. 4E knew what it was and did the hell out of that one thing. It's a maps & minis tactical skirmish-level monster-fighting game. And for that, it sings. You can see why they designed it that way. Look around the forum. Or any D&D forum, really. Most people are constantly on about how they only need rules for combat and how they don't want rules for social encounters as they can improvise those. The game that WotC produces is a monster-fighting game. All the social interaction and exploration, etc that you do at your table is up to you. WotC isn't providing that. You are. You can choose to include or exclude that aspect of play. It's up to you. WotC gives you the barest of bare-bones mechanics for that and let's you make the call.
There was no real sense of exploration or discovery, no game outside the battles. [I mean, sure you had a couple pages that discussed the Skill Challenge so you could gloss over exploration challenges. And you had rituals - which pretty much no one used, but if they did, it was to help you in future battles.]
I had the opposite experience with rituals. We used them all the time and they weren't only about combat prep. Rituals covered all the non-combat magic, so they were used regularly.

Skill challenges had the core of a fantastic idea wrapped in bad explanation, too restrictive implementation, and bad math. The core of the idea is clocks and countdowns. Something that was so well done later in Blades in the Dark it practically revolutionized the industry.

We switched to something far closer to BitD while playing 4E. It worked like a charm. We used it for everything that was more involved than one roll that wasn't combat. Freed of the bad math and restrictive implementation, the core idea absolutely sings.
In D&D 4E, it's a miniature skirmish game where one side (the heroes) is expected to win 99.9% of the time.
Yep. That's the core problem of modern, WotC-era D&D. In TSR-era D&D combat was deadly and best avoided. WotC centered combat in all of their editions but, as a result, could not make it deadly. Which they didn't figure out until after 3X. I believe the phrase was rocket tag. At a certain point, if you won initiative...you won the fight. So they fixed that. But, that also removed all the tension from combat. Combat in both 4E and 5E is mostly a pointless slog. There's effectively zero chance of losing, there's effectively no chance of dying. You just throw dice until the referee gives you the win most times. Modern combat is so boring I'd rather return to the lethality of combat in the TSR-era and OSR-style games or handle combat as a group check or skill challenge.

The only real way to run modern combat that's in any way interesting is to, paradoxically, ignore the combat. Focus on terrain, secondary objectives, puzzle combats & monsters, grandiose set-piece encounters, etc. The 4E DMGs are the best WotC ever produced for creating this kind of exciting, action-adventure D&D combats.
 

Oofta

Legend
Funny, I thought people didn't want rules in their role playing. Just give people a good combat engine and let the players free form improv the rest???

What part of "skill challenges replaced out of combat" did you not understand? Yes, too many rules for out of combat activities is not a good thing in my opinion.
 

What part of "skill challenges replaced out of combat" did you not understand? Yes, too many rules for out of combat activities is not a good thing in my opinion.
Don't forget skill checks for simple tasks, backgrounds, rituals, and questing!

I do admit it is easy to forget those things
 

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