D&D 5E New L&L for 22/1/13 D&D Next goals, part 3

[Hussar]

But, S&S heroes are mythological heroes. They aren't the "everyman heroes" at all. Conan is flat out better than everyone around him. John Carter is Superman on Mars. Elric is an anti-hero, so, he's inverting tropes, but, he's still head and shoulders better than everyone around him.

S&S heroes are Big Damn Heroes.

 

[Bluenose]

I see the S&S hero as someone who needs to plan, as opposed to a sort of mythological hero who can just fight and react because he's one with the wilderness.

Conan? Fafhrd? The Grey Mouser, though he's more 'one with the city'? Harold Shea, if you want a caster who does something similar? It's my opinion that the vast majority of S&S stories are about adventurers who get into a mess and improvise a way out with their abilities. It may be that we only hear about the times when their plans go wrong (there's probably not much interesting to say about we broke in, took the treasure, and got out with no problems) but considering their willingness to go in without much knowledge of what they're getting into, I have some doubts.

 

[Klaus]

John Carter is Superman on Mars.

Or rather, Superman is John Carter on Earth.

 

[Hussar]

Or rather, Superman is John Carter on Earth.

Touche.

 

[pemerton]

I've seen S'mon desribe S&S as modernist but I'm not really sure what that means.

I regard S&S as modernist, in so far as the vision of human life and value that it puts forward is essentially a modern one rather than a romantic one. The contrast with Tolkien in this respect, and CS Lewis, is very marked. (And is at least partially brough out in Moorcock's "Epic Pooh" attack on Tolkien.)

One marker of this is the tendency of S&S to cynicism and a materialist metaphysics. Another is the hero being master of his/her own fate, rather than an instrument of fate (contrast this with Aragorn or Frodo or Gollum in LotR).

A piece of fantasy that I think is an interesting from this point of view is Wagner's Ring Cycle: it is romantic, but not conservative in the way that Tolkien is - for instance, the resolution to cosmological crisis is achieved not by restoring order (as in Return of the King) but by an uncontrollable outsider (Siegfried) breaking all bonds and imposing his personal will onto the world. But it is also optimistic in the final analysis, but only because of the possibility of transcendence. (S&S does not involve transcendence! - that's part of its anti-romanticism.)

I can think of a few scenes in Conan and Elric that feel like planning or resource management

You don't see that much of it in the fiction, but it doesn't feel that far removed from it to me. It feels like it would occur just "off-screen", so it's not a big deal in terms of genre violation to bring it center-stage for a while in-game.

Conan? Fafhrd? The Grey Mouser

<snip>

It's my opinion that the vast majority of S&S stories are about adventurers who get into a mess and improvise a way out with their abilities.

I am with Bluenose and [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] on this one. (Though I'm going mostly off REH's Conan - ouside Conan and HPL my pulp reading is pretty minimal.)

No doubt in those Conan stories in which he is leading armies into the field there has been planning that takes place off-screen; but the very fact that it happens off the page shows that (in the author's view, at least) it does not contribute to the central thrust of the story.

When I think of Conan's preparation on-screen, I think of The God in the Bowl or The Tower of the Elephant. And in my view these are not that close to "calculate encumbrance, plan spell load-out, etc" operational play.

In some recent thread I posted an example from my Rolemaster play of incredibly intricate spell load-out stuff (involving nested Stored Spells, inlcuding Storing the Spell Store spell itself so that new Stored spells could be set up at the right time to make the whoe sequence unfold properly). I don't mind this sort of thing in limited doses, thought it was more fun when I had more time, and so could do other stuff in a session as well as elaborate planning. But for me it doesn't evoke Conan at all. It's a bit like solving a crossword, and in genre terms feels more like a certain sort of procedural - for some reason I'm thinking Alfred Hitchcock and the Three Investigators! (Especially Jupiter Jones.)

 

[Ratskinner]

Sorry for the Delayed reply, but I just caught this.

You never see Croaker (Black Company) spending all sorts of time in the planning stages of anything. It's nearly always, bare bones plan, initiate and react. Very high paced, very exciting.

I'm going to have to call foul here, Hussar. (The rest of your argument is fine, I'm just defending my beloved Black Company.)

Far from Big Damn Heroes, the Black Company are specifically and pointedly about grungy murder-hobos. Croaker often worries that he cleans it up too much in his annals, and that he may be too sympathetic to his brothers who are rapists, murderers, and thieves. They explicitly spend a lot of time planning things especially when they get down South. Murgen, during his time as annalist, repeatedly complains that Croaker (as Captain) seems obsessed with planning and deception, and in fact that campaign turns on a strategy that Croaker was working on for over a year. The company witch-men spend month after month on planning and prep, Goblin goes on a mission to the Shindai-kush (or whatever its called) and One-Eye spends almost a yearbuilding, staffing, and running what amounts to a Magic Item Factory which is produces hundreds of Fireball launchers of various sizes that they need to fight the Shadows (not to mention his spear!). Don't forget poor old Smoke. Riding that little wizard's ghost around to gather intelligence becomes an obsession for Murgen and Croaker (central to the narrative of Bleak Seasons. If they had access to Teleport, you can bet they that a lot of the stranglers would have died from Scry-and-Fry missions. (Which makes an interesting argument for removing a select few spells from 3e, and changing a few others, but that's another issue.)

Sorry man, but if ever there was a poster-child for fiction that reflects things 3.x sensibilities its the Black Company. (Honestly, the whole "Combat As War" thing seems the central focus of that aspect of the series.) If you only read the first book or two, you might be forgiven, as their mega-wizard bosses are fond of yanking them around. But if you read carefully, part of the reason SoulCatcher hires them at the start of the series is because she's not as good at that kind of thinking, and needs it for the politicking and backstabbing amongst the Taken. (Like most of the Taken, she would prefer to just level the district and sort though the remains.) You can watch (second-hand, through Croaker) during the first couple books as the Captain and the Lieutenant basically teach SoulCatcher the Art of War. The only moment when I can see that series getting close to Big Damn Heroes is the battle at the Barrowlands, and even that scene was the culmination of a lot of planning and research.

Heck. In the words of the immortal LeVar Burton "Don't take my word for it":

"With the Black Company series Glen Cook single-handedly changed the face of fantasy--something a lot of people didn't notice and maybe still don't. He brought the story down to a human level, dispensing with the cliché archetypes of princes, kings, and evil sorcerers. Reading his stuff was like reading Vietnam War fiction on peyote." --Steven Erikson, author of Gardens of the Moon

...in the service of the Lady, a powerful sorceress, to put down a rebellion that threatens her rule. The rest of the book is one long slog of a campaign, covering hundreds of miles and dozens of battles before culminating in a gigantic siege that leaves a quarter of a million men dead. --Martin Lewis

The characters act like the guys actually behave. It doesn't glorify war; it's just people getting on with the job. The characters are real soldiers. They're not soldiers as imagined by people who've never been in the service. --Glen Cook on the Black Company

::Ratskinner takes a breath and recovers his composure::

...ahem.

There are also many moments that I must refrain from mentioning as they would be the most profound and insidious spoilers.

TL/DR:
I'm a big fan of the Black Company, and Big Damn Heroes or Sword and Sorcery, they are not. It defines what a "gritty" campaign looks like for me. From my own direct experience, 4e is (so far) the single hardest edition to bend to that end. (Although I'm interested in trying again. )

As always, play what you like....

...but read the Black Company, really.

 

[Hussar]

Yeah, I've not finished all the Black Company novels. Did the first two Tor Omnibus editions, which gets me to Dreams of Steel.

But, I think Pemerton's point is valid. Yes, the planning goes on, but, it's never on camera. It's almost always glossed over. Heck, look at how little is planned when they do finally go South. They basically just start walking and things snowball from there.

But, yeah, I do take your point. And yup, great stories. They are pretty solidly Sword and Sorcery actually though. Local concerns and personal level. That's the whole point of S&S stories. Contrast with, say, Game of Thrones where the characters are all high level movers and shakers, out to change the world.

 

[Libramarian]

I regard S&S as modernist, in so far as the vision of human life and value that it puts forward is essentially a modern one rather than a romantic one. The contrast with Tolkien in this respect, and CS Lewis, is very marked. (And is at least partially brough out in Moorcock's "Epic Pooh" attack on Tolkien.)

One marker of this is the tendency of S&S to cynicism and a materialist metaphysics. Another is the hero being master of his/her own fate, rather than an instrument of fate (contrast this with Aragorn or Frodo or Gollum in LotR).

A piece of fantasy that I think is an interesting from this point of view is Wagner's Ring Cycle: it is romantic, but not conservative in the way that Tolkien is - for instance, the resolution to cosmological crisis is achieved not by restoring order (as in Return of the King) but by an uncontrollable outsider (Siegfried) breaking all bonds and imposing his personal will onto the world. But it is also optimistic in the final analysis, but only because of the possibility of transcendence. (S&S does not involve transcendence! - that's part of its anti-romanticism.)

Thanks, that makes sense. To me, being the master of your own fate in a materialist world implies a level of consciousness about your goals and your surroundings that feels to me kinda suggestive of operational play with encumbrance limits and spell loadouts and what-not.

On a superficial level, yes I see where @Hussar is coming from. No, Conan never actually deliberates over encumbrance. But it wouldn't feel out of place to me if there was a line that mentioned that he favors chainmail for its compromise between maneuverability and protection, or something like that. He's a practical man (albeit with gigantic melancholy and gigantic mirth).

I am with Bluenose and @Hussar on this one. (Though I'm going mostly off REH's Conan - ouside Conan and HPL my pulp reading is pretty minimal.)

No doubt in those Conan stories in which he is leading armies into the field there has been planning that takes place off-screen; but the very fact that it happens off the page shows that (in the author's view, at least) it does not contribute to the central thrust of the story.

When I think of Conan's preparation on-screen, I think of The God in the Bowl or The Tower of the Elephant. And in my view these are not that close to "calculate encumbrance, plan spell load-out, etc" operational play.

In some recent thread I posted an example from my Rolemaster play of incredibly intricate spell load-out stuff (involving nested Stored Spells, inlcuding Storing the Spell Store spell itself so that new Stored spells could be set up at the right time to make the whoe sequence unfold properly). I don't mind this sort of thing in limited doses, thought it was more fun when I had more time, and so could do other stuff in a session as well as elaborate planning. But for me it doesn't evoke Conan at all. It's a bit like solving a crossword, and in genre terms feels more like a certain sort of procedural - for some reason I'm thinking Alfred Hitchcock and the Three Investigators! (Especially Jupiter Jones.)

Well that kind of planning is not what I have in mind. I'm thinking more like in my game when the players spent maybe an hour storing buying treasure chests and hiring crew and outfitting and supplying their galley in preparation for a voyage to the Isle of Dread. That kind of fairly concrete preparation/planning didn't seem to threaten the S&S vibe we had going on, even though you wouldn't see that "on screen" in S&S fiction.

 

[Hussar]

And, to be fair, Libramarian, I agree. I like that sort of thing.

But, that's not quite what was being talked about though, upthread, which is applying that hour of prep to pretty much every single situation. A little goes a long way.

 

[Libramarian]

And, to be fair, Libramarian, I agree. I like that sort of thing.

But, that's not quite what was being talked about though, upthread, which is applying that hour of prep to pretty much every single situation. A little goes a long way.

OK. There's a common misconception of Conan as being this dumb shirtless barbarian who can beat anyone up without any sort of planning or forethought at all, so I was kind of reading that into your initial opinion.