D&D 5E New L&L for 22/1/13 D&D Next goals, part 3

No no. Nooooooo noo noo. The "say yes" illustrated by the passage of which you speak is not the carefully refereed "yes, I'll think about it" of wacky plan gamism, it's the "sure whatever" of super casual, right-to-dream playing with your small kid who doesn't even know the rules, so let him make it up. These are two very different things.
Which makes the incredible amount of flak about that sidebar even sillier, when it comes down to it.

But the normal sort of collaborative Say Yes DMing in the 4e DMG doesn't boil down to that sidebar. Really, the whole "running the game" section encourages both creativity and cooperation in every section, tempered with fairness, so it's very Twilight Zone to see that 4e advises the opposite.
 

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[MENTION=2067]Kamikaze Midget[/MENTION] - in addition to all the stuff that [MENTION=11821]Obryn[/MENTION] mentioned, there are the rules for damaging objects that I posted some quotes from upthread! I don't understand how the game could be any clearer that you can use powers to damage objects than by giving rules for doing so! I don't know how it could be any clearer that different materials might be affected differently by differents sorts of attacks (acid, fire etc) than by giving rules and guidelins for exactly that, which I quoted above!

If GMs read the stuff I quoted, plus the stuff that Obryn has mentioned, and still conclude that fireballs can't be used to burn trees, acid breath to damage locks and icy terrain to freeze ponds, even when playes make requests to the contrary, I don't think the blame lies primarily with the rulebooks.

More examples could have facilitated adjudication, sure. But not if GMs - as you seem to be positing - are just going to ignore them.

The non-damaging utility spells I used in my 5 years playing an AD&D evoker were my most creative D&D years as a player, ever. And that includes roleplaying as well.

<snip>

I used more walls of X spells than fireballs or lightning bolts, although those were certainly punctuation on the cake.

<snip>

You have no idea how many times I teleported the entire party across vast distances, including our horses, and having to fly or feather fall us to TP 50 feet in the air so there'd be a 0 chance of us teleporting directly into the ground.
I'm with [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] here - I'm not really seeing the distinctive creativity.

I've GMed a lot of Rolemaster, and have had many a PC cast fly and fly up before teleporting, in order to avoid the risk that you describe. I've seen a lot of clever play. Some of it used damage spells, some utility spells, some control spells. I've seen that in 4e too.

I find by-the-numbers, NPC gives you a quest, party goes and does the quest without being seriously threatened, people do some funny voices...D&D to be very boring these days.
Whose game do you think you're talking about here? And what has it got to do with adjudicating fireball to set a tree alight in 4e?

I must have missed the memo telling me that, as a 4e GM, I'm not allowed to run a serious campaign and I have to stop my players doing anything interesting or creative at every opportunity. But I'm sure those who got it are all running much better games, using the rules much more as intended by the designers, than I am!
 

So, again, how is using a spell, exactly as it's written, creative?

If you use it in a situation you haven't thought of before, it's creative already.
If you use it for a seemingly unintended purpose or application, it's also creative.
If you use it in combination with another action or ability (including another spell) for a special synergy, it's creative enough for me.

Maybe sometimes you achieve something more creative by exploiting what isn't written in the spell description.

But in general, are you trying to say that you can be creative only if allowed to use the spells in ways unwritten, such as adding effects that aren't explicitly allowed (e.g. setting fire to things) or changing them (e.g. teleporting an object instead of yourself)?

Personally I think it's also relative to the players. The first time I ever thought about using teleport on a short distance to get past a closed door, rather than using it for travelling, I felt bloody creative... I wouldn't feel the same in doing that now after 10+ years of playing the game tho.
 

Okay. If you're going to bypass all the "say yes" advice in DMG1 and collaborative storytelling stuff in DMG2 ... and basically all the advice in both of them combined ... well, then no, there's absolutely no support for improvisation in 4e.

Advice != "Concrete Tools."

Your player wants to try and burn down the Village of Plot Hooks, or the Forest of Nefarious Things, or the Paper Dungeon, What Do You Do? Your player wants to melt every lock in the bank with his acid dragon breath, What Do You Do? How can you "say yes" to that without severely sidetracking your planned village/forest/lock-filled vault adventure? Without tracking the Hit Points of every aspen and oak in the place? How can you make your fire-obsessed wizard or acid-spouting rogue happy without spinning the whole night around their shenanigans?

Where does 4e help a DM do that?

Ah, pemerton helps out:

pemerton said:
I don't understand how the game could be any clearer that you can use powers to damage objects than by giving rules for doing so

Mostly, IMXP, by making those rules good enough to want to be used. The people who made 4e are clearly able to design good rules, they just seemed to apparently feel that people using damage on things that aren't creatures too corner-case to really worry about.

This isn't about having "no" support options. This is about a potential to be better: there's room for growth from 4e on this. If anyone's under the impression that 4e is flawless in this regard, I point you to every other post from the last 5 years disagreeing with them on the topic. ;)
 
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There's a huge gap between "flawless" and "doesn't allow fireball to burn paper". Moldvay Basic has absolutely zero text on using fireball spells to burn paper, or magic missile spells to break down doors, or anything else of that sort - yet people muddled through, ships got set alight, etc etc.

As to advice on how to run things like burning down forests - there are the skill challenge rules, and the references in the PHB to using attack powers in the course of skill challenges. I'm not saying that this is the best advice ever either - but all I'm trying to do (as in my original response to Gorgoroth) is to point out that there is basically no basis in the 4e rulebooks, as written, for inferring a design intention that attack powers cannot affect inanimate objects.
 

Aside from Pg. 42, there's not a lot of concrete tools for a DM to use. And there's (clearly) a lot of ways to "say no" instead, when abilities that don't hurt monsters are mostly left up to DM fiat as to their effects.

There are "Improvising with..." section under each skill heading in HotFL, HotFR and DMK. In the skill challenges chapters, there's a part about allowing PCs to use unlisted skills, if they can come up with a good justification/plan. And really, once you have the Damage/DC by Level table, that's all you ever need. If there were a "adjust DC/damage in exchange for imposing conditions" section, that'd be everything you'd need to run a 4e game without even powers/monster stats.
 


Advice != "Concrete Tools."

Your player wants to try and burn down the Village of Plot Hooks, or the Forest of Nefarious Things, or the Paper Dungeon, What Do You Do? Your player wants to melt every lock in the bank with his acid dragon breath, What Do You Do? How can you "say yes" to that without severely sidetracking your planned village/forest/lock-filled vault adventure? Without tracking the Hit Points of every aspen and oak in the place? How can you make your fire-obsessed wizard or acid-spouting rogue happy without spinning the whole night around their shenanigans?
Because that's not really what Say Yes DMing is about. There's elements of collaboration, but it's not, "Oh, just let the PCs do just whatever." Generally, you can go with "Say Yes or Roll the Dice" but for really weird stuff, it's not like the DM's a robot, you know?

What kind of support do you think is needed for starting a forest fire other than to wing it and make it interesting/cinematic/fun/important?

Where does 4e help a DM do that?
I'm curious where you think any edition of D&D - other than something like FATE where the system is so thin it's basically transparent* and everythingI' is improv - provides this sort of thing.

This isn't about having "no" support options. This is about a potential to be better: there's room for growth from 4e on this. If anyone's under the impression that 4e is flawless in this regard, I point you to every other post from the last 5 years disagreeing with them on the topic. ;)
Come on, man. I think [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] and I have both said that 4e could be better in many, many ways. And saying "there's always potential to be better" is kind of just a truism.

I'm arguing against the specific claim that 4e was somehow worse in this regard, despite two DMGs full of advice about how great it is to improvise. I'm not arguing yours or anyone else's personal experiences.

-O

* In a good way! Aspects rock.
 

If GMs read the stuff I quoted, plus the stuff that Obryn has mentioned, and still conclude that fireballs can't be used to burn trees, acid breath to damage locks and icy terrain to freeze ponds, even when playes make requests to the contrary, I don't think the blame lies primarily with the rulebooks.

Pemerton, it's not I who concluded that fireballs only targetted creatures, it's the DMs I played with. It's easy enough in retrospect to point to this or that obscure passage (yes I have heard of p42...but only a year after every single gamer I know -- and I know and have played with dozens at the local gaming center and in several groups and campaigns - and they pretty much all quit 4e out of frustration and boredom).

I realize now that with a very good DM, 4e could be more relaxed/realistic and less cookie-cuttery and repetitive, but you gotta ask yourself, is a side bar of houseruling powers to do strange things likely to be used / referred to in most games? In my experience, no. DMs usually want a quick and consistent way to adjudicate these things, and find that if they deviate from RAW too much, they might set a precedent and get hit with a broken combo. The impression one gets from a 4e character sheet is not one of too many options, but too many rigid options, such that if you took the time to pick your at-will to combo with this feat and this encounter power and this class feature, that you should use those powers. I tried arguing with my DM before we even started our campaign, and he told me no, acid breath doesn't melt metal, and no, you can't turn on your torch or set that barn on fire and do ongoing HP damage to all objects inside for as many rounds as it takes for them to all be turned to cinder, because he'd be right...those powers are not balanced for that. They're balanced around a very limited, in-encounter ideology. It's like out of combat the world goes in 5 minute chunks, and in combat a 5 minute chunk of time can be 30 seconds or 10 minutes.

The point isn't that there aren't quirky sidebars and rare rules that you can dig up on the forums, but one of perception and practical usage. I've never, EVER seen page 42 used at a live gaming table. Not once. Maybe others here have, and maybe the DMs I played with all sucked at 4e, but the atmosphere at so many of those tables ended up being a game of one-upsmanship between the PCs trying out builds of classes they just got access to in this month's update and on the forums, and errata making their perfectly fine character completely borked when neither the players nor the DM thought it was OP. Of course, there are many broken things in every edition, but you cannot rely on a game so dictated by RAW back and forth arguments and updates having this sort of flexibility taken seriously. It's like going into court and with a stack of law books on the table, you cast all that aside, and ask for jury nullification in every case you try. Not gonna happen.

As for creative use of spells in AD&D, a "straight up" usage of Teleport was a game of russian roulette. I'm not surprised other creative mages came up with some similar tactics that I did, but that was before these forums were popular and certainly I got all my ideas by analyzing my spell descriptions like a lawyer would in between turns. Very bookish and studious...almost mage-like, you would say. Ask me how many times I've read over the powers on my 4e sheets. A few, but only in the edge cases. There were dozens of creative combos I came up with in AD&D. Here's an example : We were chasing an enemy pirate ship that was faster than us, and faster than any fly spell. A moving target. Scrying didn't help to teleport to it either, it had serious negatives and if we ended up the wrong place, it would be a bad swim full of sharks. On top of that, our ship was much, much weaker and couldn't possibly survive a one-on-one battle, and the captain forbade us from tomfoolery and playing a game of chicken. So what I came up with triangulating their navigation, on an intercept course, flying up, invisible (with the fighters carrying me and the other unarmored people, so we could all fly with my limited uses), and in an area of invisibility we just floated and waited for the other ship to fly to us instead of trying to catch it. We landed, killed the guys on the roof, and did all sorts of interesting things thereafter. I went up a level for that, since it wasn't an obvious thing to do. Sure, there were other options, such as charming our own captain to let us navigate closer, or make a canoe invisible, but the point is...a wizard in an earlier game, could plan out...take so and so many instances of fly, invis, stoneskin, teleport, fireballs...and deck out the group to take on a pirate king on his own turf. It required weighing all the PCs gear, calculating the speed of the ships and how long we'd have to wait in the sky suspended, contingencies if that failed, escape routes if the plan turned to heck.

I am telling you, forget about doing 90% of the stuff we did in that campaign in a 4e game. Just cannot happen. We had a pathfinder game that went to 8-9th level that in six months gave us so many more epic stories and incredible feats of ingenuity, fun, and roleplaying, that I just want Next to build on those experiences instead of the grind of same-old-same-old. I tried to have as much fun in 4e, I really did. We all did. And in the end, failed. Sure, it was fun sometimes and we have some great moments. But they were much fewer and farther in between, and not consistent enough to keep people excited about playing.

All that said, I'd rather play a melee type in 4e than in AD&D...they sucked + were boring. At least a 4e fighter had some tactics. Even my 4e paladin was way more interesting than my old AD&D paladins...but the overall game and story were just better. There was more story to crunch on, because rather than the entire game be focused on in-combat use of abilities, it was focused on a bunch of things, making the melee fighter boringness much less of an issue.
 

*[citation needed]

I tried to think of it but I don't recall...some thread here. I edited that comment out of my post though, since there's a chance I could be misremembering. But it's not a big deal regardless.
Which makes the incredible amount of flak about that sidebar even sillier, when it comes down to it.

But the normal sort of collaborative Say Yes DMing in the 4e DMG doesn't boil down to that sidebar. Really, the whole "running the game" section encourages both creativity and cooperation in every section, tempered with fairness, so it's very Twilight Zone to see that 4e advises the opposite.
I don't find it silly, I found that sidebar pointlessly antagonistic to my preferred style of play. I say pointless because it didn't seem to have any sort of clear, take-home applicability to some other style of play. It seemed like just a dumb thing to include.
Note to mike mearls ... You better have clearly articulated advise on play style, particularly gamist vs.narrative if there is to be any hope of next as a peacemaker edition... And in the standard rules at that. ...

I agree. I don't think they need to use GDS/GNS terms though.

Whose game do you think you're talking about here? And what has it got to do with adjudicating fireball to set a tree alight in 4e?

I must have missed the memo telling me that, as a 4e GM, I'm not allowed to run a serious campaign and I have to stop my players doing anything interesting or creative at every opportunity. But I'm sure those who got it are all running much better games, using the rules much more as intended by the designers, than I am!

Whoa! I'm not talking about anyone's game in particular. I'm not participating in the fireball conversation. I was just telling Gorgoroth that the type of game he was describing is the type of game I like, and then I talked about some other stuff I like and don't like. I don't mean to agree with all of his specific 4e criticisms, I'm just saying I like the overall style of play he's describing.
 

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