New monster damage expressions - What do they mean for the game?

[UngeheuerLich]

How much actually changed at low heroic level?

1 or 2 points at most i guess...

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Gnoll Marauder was 1d8+6. Now it should be 2d8+8.

 

[keterys]

Actually, gnoll marauder is 1d8+6...
+2 when bloodied
+5 with allies
+a free bite against bloodied

so I doubt it would be 2d8+8 now.

Though, looking at things, it also did half damage or less of what it should have done to be competitive. So, yay for better monsters.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Gnoll Marauder was 1d8+6. Now it should be 2d8+8.

Here's an interesting point though, the damage of MM1 monsters NEVER seems to have even been up to the levels set by the original DMG1 damage expressions. Gnoll Marauder is probably a bad example due to all the conditional bonuses it gets, but by the original damage expression table a level 6 brute should have done 2d8+4 (high normal damage expression). It should now be around 3d6+7 (single target 2d6+7 * 1.25). That means its averaging 18.5 now vs 13 before.

Now, if we assume 50% of attacks are against bloodied enemies (probably an overestimate) and 50% get the +5 bonus (hard to say, but not a bad guess) that would make its damage output 1d8+6 + 2.5 + 1 = 1d8+9.5 or 3d8+1.5 and then if we add in Quick Bite damage (call it 1.5 more damage) or 3d8+3 roughly if it was one attack that pretty much means it was doing around 16.5 or about 1d6 above the old recommendation and 2 points below the new one.

However this was a pretty good monster by MM1 standards, especially for a brute. Look at the Kruthik Young, doing 1d8+2 vs DMG1 2d6+3, or Dire Rat at 1d6+2 vs DMG1 2d6+3, etc. No doubt Keterys has a handle on the actual MM1 Brute avg damage output, but I'm pretty sure its consistently below DMG1's table and I'm pretty sure ALL MM1 monsters on average, even the low level ones I use here as examples, are below (and I expect it gets worse at higher levels).

The question is really what SHOULD be the adjustment for MM1? Should MM1 monsters be doing errata level damage output, which seems to be at the lowest end about the same as DMG1 damage and at the higher end about 75% higher or should they be doing an equal proportion more damage than they are now, which mostly would probably just leave them around the old recommended damage at low level and maybe a BIT higher at best at the top (and thus a lot below errata damage at the top and at least somewhat less on average at the bottom)?

 

[Xyrlove Woodsoul]

I didn't notice much of a grind at heroic, but I sure noticed it in paragon. While changeing some of the monster's damage expressions is proving to be somewhat difficult (for example, when I tried to reconconfigure a Beholder Death Ray powers) with the new update, my paragon level encounters are flowing much more nicely now. Before, I had to throw level +3 encounters at them, as a baseline, because the monsters did very little damage, but raising the EL also made the monsters really hard to hit, the party needed to roll 15, 16, 17, just to hit, and many of their powers became irrelevant. Also, the monsters always hit, which didn't really create a problem per se, it was just irritating how combat went, because hitting was so lop-sided. Also, as a dm, I felt the players were leveling up a bit too quick, having such a high level baseline. Another problem I had was, that my players would be hesistant to use their Daily powers because it was so hard to hit the monsters, given that I had to set the baseline so high (I even give everyone a +1/+2/+3 to hit bonus at 5/15/21). As a result, my players would run out of surges but still have a bunch of dailies left over. But now, my players dont hesitate as much to use a Daily power, and everything has become more symmetrical.
I really like the changes. They have also lowered the average # of rounds/encounter like by 4 rounds, and combat seems more intense and exciting, and not so grindy. The only problem I am having is converting some of the monster's damage expressions for specific powers, sometimes it just doesnt seem right.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Actually, gnoll marauder is 1d8+6...
+2 when bloodied
+5 with allies
+a free bite against bloodied

so I doubt it would be 2d8+8 now.

It was just an example. Bugbear Warrior, 1d12+6, should be 2d8+7. Not a big difference, but more than 1 or 2 points.

Blackscale Bruiser, 1d10+6 should be 2d8+8. (And how is it ever going to use its tail attack as an opportunity attack as the fluff says).

Troll: 2d6+6 is now 2d10+10!

Some monsters will see a surge in damage, others won't but it will almost always be 4 poits or more at heroic.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Clarification:

1 or 2 points at level 1 and about 1/2 point of increasing difference per level?

So the +1/2 per level damage shouldwork out quite well?

 

[ArcaneSpringboard]

I didn't notice much of a grind at heroic, but I sure noticed it in paragon. While changeing some of the monster's damage expressions is proving to be somewhat difficult (for example, when I tried to reconconfigure a Beholder Death Ray powers) .... The only problem I am having is converting some of the monster's damage expressions for specific powers, sometimes it just doesnt seem right.

Can you elaborate on this? What exactly is the issue that you're having?

 

[ArcaneSpringboard]

Clarification:

1 or 2 points at level 1 and about 1/2 point of increasing difference per level?

So the +1/2 per level damage shouldwork out quite well?

For normal monsters and at will attacks, maybe.

But for Brutes and limited attacks, even the +1/2 per level damage isn't enough.

 

[Abraxas]

If the changes were meant to fix issues you never had, then I think you can safely skip them. If you're fine where you are, then why change? Those updates were made because people were complaining about grind and lack of danger from monsters or whatever.

I'm not the DM in the game where the changes will have the most impact.
As soon as the online tools get updated with the changes its going to be hard to reconfigure things back the way they were. Plus anything after MM3 is going to be using the updates.