New player and even newer DM struggling with another player...

[AndrewDB]

Point One: It sounds like this kid is doing simple-roll thievery in situations that require full-blown skill challenges. You have everyone's permission, here and at your table, to be a full-blown DM who uses the full-blown rules. Let this kid hear you roar in the form of a proper skill challenge.

Point Two: It sounds like this kid (and the group) isn't role playing. Reputation is part of role playing. If the kid continually needs to convince people he didn't do something wrong, eventually nobody believes him, even when he is telling the truth.

Scenario: Have an NPC steal from a Big Bad Evil. Have the BBE assume he kid did the stealing. Have the BBE confront the kid due to his reputation, then have the kid perform a full-blown skill challenge.

Of course the kid didn't steal from the BBE. If the kid isn't lying, his bluff check doesn't do him any good. Of course the kid will role a stealth check to get away. If the kid is in an open field with no cover or in a market filled with eyes staring at him and the BBE, his stealth check doesn't do him any good.

Maybe you Let the kid get away (no bluff, no stealth, just a pathetic guy running away from someone bigger than him) and stick the BBE with the kids companions. After the BBE performs a TPK on the rest of the party you have an entire table full of people pissed at the kid. You now have leverage, at which point you offer to pretend this was all a dream the character had that convinced him to change his ways. The kid can still lie and steal and sneak, but doesn't do it when it makes trouble for everyone he hangs with.

 

[Smoke Jaguar]

I have to admit that I am not the greatest at running skill challenges. I am trying to learn how to do those better. I plan on having one or two the next time we play.

I fully plan on sticking it to the kid. I will give him a chance and won't go gunning for him planning on kill him, unless the circumstance calls for it.

 

[mysticknight232]

I don't think this has been suggested yet, but how about you turn the tables on him. I'm not advocating letting him continue to pilfer everything in sight, but how about the next time he's assaulting a Lord from the shadows (perceived or real shadows), the Lord has a lvl 30 epic rogue on his payroll and that epic rogue pilfers everything the thieveing player owns.

Your epic lvl rogue makes a stealth roll 50 and a thievery check 50...the PC discovers that he has not only lost all of his gold, potions and supplies (including food and adventuring gear), but his +2 dagger and and +2 short bow are completely gone and have been replaced with a stick hastily fastened together to resemble a dagger and a curved stick with a string tied to it used to resemble a short bow.

You know, something along those lines where he starts to feel the sting of what he's doing being done back to him. Tell him that he can have his stuff back after he successful completes counseling at the local thieves guild...ok, that last part is just a little joke, but trying to do to him what he does to others may help him see how annoying it is.

GL in resolving this issue at your table.

 

[fba827]

as dm you should try and keep the game under control, and you should try and be accomodating of the guy's age (realizing it's age and game experience at play here; i'm sure several of us did the same thing when we were 12, but we were probably playing with others in that same mindset). but at the same time, (unless you wanted to, or it's a natural part of your own personality) you shouldn't have to play the older brother role (you're not his older brother) but you can treat him like a friend and fellow human being and give him some basic respect and chance to change on his own.

I would just tell him in private (as nonconfrontaionally as possible)
"It looks like a fun character that you're playing, but because of the mix of alignments within the group it's getting difficult for the party to all work together. can we make a new pc that is more good so that he can work with the rest of the party?"

(if need be, refer to the 4e PHB, i assume 4e since this is a 4e forum, in the alignment section there is specifically a sentence about how evil and CE PCs are not appropriate unless all PCs are evil/CE. - but that may be seen as confrontational, depending on the guy's personality, so use that tactic with caution)

And see how he takes it then. if it still doesn't change the way his (new or current) PC acts (regardless of alignment), then i'd mention to the older brother that it's becoming too disruptive for you and some of the other players and if he knows a way to get the younger brother to tone it back or else he'll have to be asked to leave the group.

anyway, just my take on it as an uninvolved outsider YMMV

 

[Smoke Jaguar]

I don't think this has been suggested yet, but how about you turn the tables on him. I'm not advocating letting him continue to pilfer everything in sight, but how about the next time he's assaulting a Lord from the shadows (perceived or real shadows), the Lord has a lvl 30 epic rogue on his payroll and that epic rogue pilfers everything the thieveing player owns.

Your epic lvl rogue makes a stealth roll 50 and a thievery check 50...the PC discovers that he has not only lost all of his gold, potions and supplies (including food and adventuring gear), but his +2 dagger and and +2 short bow are completely gone and have been replaced with a stick hastily fastened together to resemble a dagger and a curved stick with a string tied to it used to resemble a short bow.

You know, something along those lines where he starts to feel the sting of what he's doing being done back to him. Tell him that he can have his stuff back after he successful completes counseling at the local thieves guild...ok, that last part is just a little joke, but trying to do to him what he does to others may help him see how annoying it is.

GL in resolving this issue at your table.

You sir are wickedly smart... I like where this is going.

I do appreciate everybody's feedback. You all have reassured me on the path that I wanted to go and gave me some good new ideas as well.

The older Brother was the DM, I kind of already feel guilty taking his DM responsibilities away from him but it was for the best.

Speaking to my friend we are changing the venue location and the little brother probably won't be able to make it but that is in about a month.

I don't want to force him to play a neutral or good character. I am going to talk to him about it and if he wants to stay evil, I will let him know that it will be more difficult for him. He did originally want to play good but he kept doing evil things. So we would remind him that he was good. That is when he decided to up and change to evil, so he could basically do what he wants.

 

[jbear]

Try this instead:

"You meet the town's local lord..." (he interurpts) "I roll a 30 to stealth, sneak behind--"

"...I'll get to you in a second. The lord is seated on his throne; you're all in the center of the room, with about half a dozen guards--"

(interrupts again) "I rolled a 30--"

"WAIT YOUR TURN." (Finish description, then "Okay, you still want to try to sneak up on him?"

"Yeah, I rolled a 30--"

"Roll."

"I already-"

"You don't roll until it's your turn. Roll."

"Sigh. 28."

"Not bad. You start sliding around behind him, but since you're well lit and surrounded by soldiers, they cross their weapons and bar your way. 'Halt!' snarls the captain."

"I Bluff him. 25."

"He cuts you off as you start to speak. 'Silence! You have been summoned to listen, not speak!' He gives you a hard look. 'Mind your manners, dolt. I'll be watching you!'"

Mechanically, a couple of things:

1. It takes total cover or improved concealment to make a Stealth check.
2. The DC to Bluff someone should be modified by circumstance. While he may be able to bluff his way out of trouble a couple of times, when he keeps coming up as a suspect, the authorities are going to be much harder to dissuade.
3. If he is caught red-handed, a bluff may not be enough to save him, especially if he's stealing from a lord. Hell, he may not even have time to Bluff- I'd certainly call for an initiative check vs. any guards or whoever it is that noticed him before he had a chance to bluff; that's a standard action, yo.
4. To me, this is the most important thing about pcs like this: If his actions get him killed, let him die.

This is down the lines I would go, only I would go further: 'You bluff him... well, I will decide that! What do you say?....'

You sneak up behind him... really ... in broad daylight in a sparsely furnished room... and how exactly are you going to do that?

Noone at my table rolls any skill check until i ask them to, and they certainly don't get away with 'I bluff him'. Roleplay and I will based upon the strength of what you say or do judge your chance of success.

Chaotic Evil... with Lawful players ... doesn't work. As one of my ground rules, neutral to good and cooperation is obligatory. It's a team game. If you don't like it then don't play.

As far as interrupting. Not acceptable. Worthy of meta-game lightining bolts being flung from the all powerful god known as DM from the RPG Heavens down upon his heathenous head.

Tactics? I'd do it this way:

Take 15 minutes before you start to share your concerns at the table. Be frank but no need to point fingers. Honesty is the best policy; you feel inexperienced to run a game with such diverse alignments so you propose limiting it to neutral; no evil characters. You hope this will promote cooperative team play which you feel more competent DMing.

Then propose some other social norms: No interrupting until you have finished describing a situation. No skill checks until the DM calls for them. Players describe their actions not just the skill they use. the Dm will decide if a roll is even necessary and which skill is appropriate to the action described.

Ask what all your players think of the norms. Don't ask the Brother or the 12 year old first. I guess that is a first step and the next relies on their reaction.

Your best weapon is that you're new to this and you need their collaboration to help the game run smoothly. Let them know that is how you feel. Get them all on board. If that doesn't work then your next course of action is talking to the brother and kid one on one.

 

[Chimera]

People can't be bluffed about everything and anything. It is the bad or inexperienced GM that allows this to happen. If someone tried to bluff you out of your checkbook or your car, is that going to work? If they intimidated you out of it, you'd call that ROBBERY, and it would be treated as such by the authorities. Likewise outright theft is not going to go unpunished.

Some people get this idea that they can run around in a game and be the jerk they'd secretly love to be in real life (but can't because there are real life consequences), and the GM should allow it all with NO CONSEQUENCES because that way is "fun". Personally, I won't run a game that way, or allow people to act this way at my table. You want to play a psychotic criminal, go find someone else. I don't facilitate that behavior. (Unless I happened to be running a game designed for such things).

Otherwise, people get some pretty silly ideas into their heads about what the other people at the table should be tolerating in the name of thier own fun. Recently, a guy I'd been gaming with for several years, a person who has a tendency to run mentally unbalanced characters (perhaps because he's a bit tetched himself) (and doesn't understand the idea that maybe he should try NOT playing such characters JUST ONCE) announced that he was going to play a Rogue who liked to steal from other party members and was a total klepto, because that was "a lot of fun". Well, I let him know in no uncertain terms that I DESPISE this kind of character and this childish idea of roleplaying, that none of my characters would ever tolerate such a person in their midst, and that this would be not just a whole lot of no fun for me, but would provoke some rather immediate conflict in and out of the game with me. At the end of the day, I had to have a chat with the GM about how this was a Very Bad Idea (tm) and that I would like his help in quashing it. And that he did. But it still very greatly reduced my (real life) respect for the individual who thought this would be cool.

 

[Chimera]

(he interurpts) I roll a 30 to stealth, sneak behind him and roll a 32 to thievery to pick pocket him while the others distract him while talking. What do I find?

"You find that it really doesn't matter how stealthy you THINK you are, or how talented a thief, because when you are in the local lord's council room, there is always someone watching you, beyond the usual magic protections and such. **ATTEMPTING** TO PICKPOCKET A NOBLEMAN SITTING IN COUNCIL IN FRONT OF EVERYONE IS SUICIDALLY STUPID.

Congratulations, you are caught as you try to sneak around behind him, and are placed under arrest.

I think this is the end of this character, he's not getting off this charge, so why don't you think of something else for your next character."

 

[BrokeAndDrive]

"You find that it really doesn't matter how stealthy you THINK you are, or how talented a thief, because when you are in the local lord's council room, there is always someone watching you, beyond the usual magic protections and such. **ATTEMPTING** TO PICKPOCKET A NOBLEMAN SITTING IN COUNCIL IN FRONT OF EVERYONE IS SUICIDALLY STUPID.

Congratulations, you are caught as you try to sneak around behind him, and are placed under arrest.

I think this is the end of this character, he's not getting off this charge, so why don't you think of something else for your next character."

*adopts 12-yo voice, clears throat*

WHY DO YOU HATE ME WHY DID YOU KILL ME I HATE YOU I HAATE YOOUU WAAAAAH WAAAAAAAAAHHH~!! *bangs and slaps and hits the table, knocking everything off, flies onto the floor with a thud, kicking and screaming and screeching and slamming head on floor until a neighbor calls the cops*


Kids, man... they ain't known 'bout der calm 'n' rational behavior...

 

[dvvega]

In my younger days DMing I would always run into this kind of thing.

A lot of posters have made very good suggestions on the topic and most of them work well.

The problem here is that most MM adversaries that fit your situation (Humans, Elves, etc) are not trained in Insight (mainly Perception) and a trained Thief can steal from a 10th level character at 3rd level on average (Trained and rolls 10).

So what to do? The only place to catch him is during the Stealth part. The only way to stealth as per the rules is to have cover/concealment/no one is looking at you.

It is no good to have a crate to jump behind while the guards are looking at you. If you do not have these things then it is up to the DM to allow it.

In addition if he doesn't move at a speed of 2 squares or less he is no longer hidden. Funny thing is that while talking to the players, ensure there are 4 to 6 squares between King/Lord and players. That means there are 2 to 3 rounds for the others to roleplay and while this is going on - HEY!! Were there not 6 of you a minute ago?

This should trigger active Perception/Searching. Using the example of 25 Stealth checks, an average Human Guard (MM) has 10% chance of finding him. However a group of 6 Guards make this almost 50% chance of finding him. You could DM-rule that you roll once or toss a coin or whatever. Eight guards would make this 57% chance of finding him.

Once caught as others have said, he gets to Bluff his way out of it - most likely winning the skill check. However at this point the King/Lord's personal Insight (how did he become king without it?) knows the Rogue was up to no good and doesn't trust the party anymore - please leave. Do this a couple of times and the party is going to start reining in the Rogue themselves.

I have always found that party justice handles things much better than DM justice.

On a side note: his brother doesn't sound all too great if the last task as DM was to turn to his little brother and say "its okay to play CE". It is like he wanted to cause problems.

D